Theological Discussions Discouraged?
The only thing I tend to be troubled about is that, Crystal, you seem to discourage theological discussion without husbands/fathers present. Is that a VF thing? I have never read VF but am familiar of it through your posts and links. I think theological discussion is good among women and men though I usually don't have them with many men. I think all Christians are to "study to show themselves approved." I have many theological differences with my husband and I do not respect him less for them. I always let him know what I discuss with others (we have no secrets from each other). I guess the reason for this post is that I sometimes feel that you discourage theological building up of women and, if you do, is that a VF teaching? -Zan
Zan: This is not a Vision Forum "thing", per se. It's something that my husband and I have personally decided is not best for this blog. I don't have a problem with women thinking about, reading about, or discussing doctrine, I just prefer not to do it on here. That's not the goal of this blog and there are some subjects that I prefer not to broach here because I have seen that when women debate doctrinal issues without their husbands, it can cause dissention in relationships and marriages.
I believe that the husband is the head of the home and the head of the wife. As such, he is to be the spiritual leader. He should be leading his family spiritually. If the wife is off studying things for herself and coming to her own conclusions without his direction and blessing and oversight, it can quickly cause disunity in the marriage. Women are more easily deceived than men. Women are more prone to "jump on the latest bandwagon." Women are more prone to compare and they are very prone to try and usurp authority over their husbands. We just always need to be very careful in this regard that we do not think we are more "spiritual" than our husbands because we are more "studied up, read up, thought up, prayed up."
posted by Crystal Paine at 2:28 PM
31 Comments:
That is exactly what I was trying to say!!!
Oh Amen Crystal! I am totally with you on this! I really feel that Satan uses women's emotions and gut insticts against her. He certainly did in the Garden and he continues to do so now. I never trust my emotions on gut insticts on doctorine issues with out first discussing it with my husband. I have found that this eliminates nearly all mistakes on my part and keeps me on Biblically sound level. It doesn't matter if you are more learned Biblically speaking. God will work through your husband and give him insights that you never might have seen. There is a reason why man is head of woman, and I believe the reason for this can be traced back to Garden and Eve being deceived by the serpent.
Well said, Crystal, I agree with you.
A verse in Timothy came to mind when thinking about this subject.
These verses are refering to widows but I think it is applicable to ALL women: I Tim 5:13-14 says "And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house(or computer to computer??); and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully."......I, of course, added what is in parenthesis.
In the book , CTBHHM on pages 211-212 she had some interesting thoughts on this subject.
What are women to do if their husbands are just as easily swayed or are not studying God's word? What if they have no idea why their church has things called the Heidelberg Catechism or the Canons of Dort? I have been waiting for years for my husband to be the spiritual leader in my home. Sometimes he reads a Psalm he has picked from random before we eat dinner and it is my 3 year old daughter that makes sure we all pray. My husband liked our old church in another state better. They never said a word to him for working on Sunday, not coming to church, or taking jobs that were going to go no where and barely cover our bills. I was the one who made sure the girls were learning about God and emailed theological questions to the pastor for answers. I tried frequntly asking my husband, but I learned that was fruitless.
Sorry, this has been a huge struggle.
Just my $0.02
2 Tim. 2:15 says to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
That covers all Christians, not just husbands.
Wwwwwwweeelllll Luv4home, that is exactly the reason you SHOULDN'T be discussing this kind of stuff. You have sort of dishonored your husband in front of us.
Don't get mad at me..... please......I am soooooo very guilty of the same thing. It IS very wrong of us to be discussing this kind of subject matter with others. It would be best for us to be discussing our husbands lack of whatever with God. Trust me, I know how you feel, I know how your heart hurts and I know how you could probably just run down the street screaming at times.
But do you see, that if I were to jump on the bandwagon with you, and we agree and talk and talk some more, that you or I would probably feel even more frustrated with our husbands because it would be like rubbing salt into a wound.
God knows our hearts and He has His own agenda. We are to be doing His work within the parameters that He has set forth. He didn't say it would be easy.
You hang in there and keep praying and moving forward one day at a time. YOU do what is right. Don't look at your husband and wait for him to do right. YOU do it. You WILL see the fruit of your efforts and perseverance someday. :-)
There are many of us like you out here. Let us all pray for one another to do what is right in the eyes of God. :-)
Luv4Home: My heart goes out to you. I don't know how difficult this must be, but I can only imagine!
Have you read "Created to Be His Help Meet"? I know there is a lot of controversy surrounding this book, but this book has some very excellent encouragement for women who are in a situation such as yours and I feel it could be a huge encouragement to you. I'll be happy to send you a free copy if you just send email me your address.
Maybe some other women who are older and wiser and more experienced than me could share some encouragement with you as well?
luv4home,
There are a lot of families who wouldn't have any Godly instruction if it wasn't for mom plugging in. Praise God they stepped up to the plate!
And I personally don't see anything wrong with what you've shared :>)
Katie, I think you are missing the whole point here. If you read my post, you will see the reasons for not posting such personal things about our husbands to others. It IS dishonoring and I gave reasons why. Biblical reasons.
Also too, nobody on here is DISCOURAGING women for fulfilling their God-given role of instructing their children. Where did you see that or where did you feel it was/is inferred?
Why is it you keep on thinking that we are discouraging women discussing the Bible???? Explain yourself so at least I can try to understand your opinion towards this subject. :-)
c.a.,
I'm confused. I don't remember commenting on your post???
Help me out here :>)
Katie,
Sorry if I confused you. :-) I was referring to the reply (from me) to LUV4home.
and then you stated " And I personally don't see anything wrong with what you've shared :>)".
I was asking you to expand on that thought a little bit more - as to why you don't think that what she said would be dishonoring her husband.
Hopefully, I made it more clear???? :-)
Katie,
Sorry if I confused you. :-) I was referring to the reply (from me) to LUV4home.
and then you stated " And I personally don't see anything wrong with what you've shared :>)".
I was asking you to expand on that thought a little bit more - as to why you don't think that what she said would be dishonoring her husband.
Hopefully, I made it more clear???? :-)
I disagree with most of the stuff you say about women. I understand that you are not saying that women don't have minds of thier own, but it really does sound like it!
What proof is there that women are more prone than men to do this-and-that? I know that it says in the Bible that Eve was the first to be tricked by Satan, but Eve was just one woman! Just because she messed up doesn't make us women so messed up that we have to depend on men for whatever we need or want to do.
Quooba, you need to get the book "So Much More" by the Botkin sisters....read it and see where you stand afterwards. :-)
P.S. I hope you don't lose your blog again! hee hee.
I see your point. However, I don't completely agree with you. As someone already pointed out2 Timothy 2:15 and other verses commanding knowledge of the Scriptures apply to all people, not just wives who are blessed to have a husband with an appetite for study. What about wives who are unequally yoked? Are they not to study until their husbands are saved? What about wives whose husbands love the Lord, but are not of a studious bent? What about wives whose husbands deploy for six to twelve months at a whack, leaving them the quasi-head of the household? (and yes, when my husband is deployed, he is still the head. But surely you can see how the logistics of that headship would be affected)
We see in the Word many instances of God giving a word to a woman before he gave it to her husband. Rebecca, for example, received the word about Esau and Jacob. Mary was told about Jesus. Hannah about Samuel. In the cases of Hannah and Rebecca, both women sought the Lord and He answered them. They did not have to get their husbands to do the seeking for them. And of course we have the case of Timothy, who was instructed by two women. Perhaps they were both widows...we don't know. But we can't assume they didn't have husbands.
I see what you mean about too much education leading to disunity. But then, not being able to study because a husband is not studying could also cause discord. The real issue is one of the heart. You put it well in your last sentence:
We just always need to be very careful in this regard that we do not think we are more "spiritual" than our husbands because we are more "studied up, read up, thought up, prayed up."
The answer is not to refuse to learn. The answer is to remain submissive and humble, regardless of one's "book-learnin"
Whoa there, C.A. Worcester. First you said, "You hang in there and keep praying and moving forward one day at a time. YOU do what is right. Don't look at your husband and wait for him to do right. YOU do it. You WILL see the fruit of your efforts and perseverance someday" and then you said, "If you read my post, you will see the reasons for not posting such personal things about our husbands to others. It IS dishonoring and I gave reasons why. Biblical reasons."
I'm not trying to jump down your throat, or be disrespectful, however, it appears to me as if you are saying two different things. It sounds to me as if Luv4Home has been frustrated with her situation for a long time and was airing those frustrations, not to needlessly bash her husband, but to get feedback from those who might be able to provide some encouragement and insight. Perhaps she does not have another lady whom she can turn to for support.
Now I'm not suggesting that it is something that should happen all the time, but, as a pastor's wife, I can sympathize with how difficult it can be if you don't have another godly woman to talk to. Yes, I do talk to the Lord alot, but sometimes you just need interaction with another woman. I have a very good friend in Virginia that I talk with and I don't see that as being disrespectful to my husband at all.
Can you clarify for me?
'"The answer is not to refuse to learn. The answer is to remain submissive and humble, regardless of one's "book-learnin"'
Good point, blestwithsons! Your post also made me think of the Shunamite woman from 2 Kings 4:8-37.
I guess I didn't take Crystal's post as saying that we shouldn't study the Bible because we're women, like Katie said, 2 Tim 2:15 instructs ALL people to do that. I felt like she was saying that she didn't want her blog to become a forum for that type of discussion because it's not the direction she (or her husband) wants her blog to take. Also, I think she doesn't want us getting off of here, after discussing theology, and saying to our husbands 'well Crystal said this and that about that passage of Scripture'.
The first couple of sentences from Crystal's original post:
--------------------------
'This is not a Vision Forum "thing", per se. It's something that my husband and I have personally decided is not best for this blog. I don't have a problem with women thinking about, reading about, or discussing doctrine, I just prefer not to do it on here. That's not the goal of this blog....'
I could be wrong, but to me, this seemed to be the main thing she was trying to get across.
Yes, you nailed it, Mrs. B. :)
Yes. I can see how that was your overall point, Crystal. And it's a very good one. However, when you include sentences like this:
If the wife is off studying things for herself and coming to her own conclusions without his direction and blessing and oversight, it can quickly cause disunity in the marriage.
Then you can see how you come rather close to implying that a woman shouldn't be studying unless her husband is doing it with her - or at least directing her study.
Blestwithsons: :)In blogging, it is impossible to touch on all the caveats and it's also impossible to be able to clearly articulate to every single person what you are meaning, when you haven't a clue where many people are coming from. I do the best I can and usually read entries such as this one to my husband first before I post them so that he can see if it communicates what I am trying to communicate. Even then, everyone will read it in a bit of a different light.
I just want to encourage women to look to their authorities as their spiritual leader and not to see themselves as more "spiritual" -- which is so easy to do and I know I have been guilty of it.
I always write from the perspective of a woman with a Godly husband who is seeking to lead her spiritually. Obviously, not everyone on here is in the same situation so it will be a little different for every person, but it is hard for me to write from any other perspective than my own life. You know what I mean?
It is always helpful for others to point these things out, though, because I often don't realize that what I meant could be taken as something different by someone else in a different place. So, thanks for sharing. I have a lot left to learn. :)
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
I second Crystal. Going into every detail is impossible. Sometimes I think people read too much into what is being said. Although, it is good people are thinking!!! :-)
The above post should be signed "caworcester". My lovely daughter has been "fixing" some things on her blogs....hmmmmmm, looks like they still need fixing! :-)
Hey guys,
Haven't been online in awhile (visiting relatives while my husband is away on business.) I didn't read all the comments but I didn't mean to start such a controversy. Atleast it made for good discussion.
I think it is Ok for women to learn and discuss doctrine but she still has to submit and respect her husband. Women strugle with submission all the time and if Crystal wants to stay away from that then that is not a bad thing.
I personally have seen many women jump on the band wagon of many different doctrines and leave their husbands behind.(I think the funniestexample was a women felt convicted towear a headcovering 24/7 and her husband didn't think it was such a hot idea. Kind of defeated the whole purpose of submission). This is tricky because the husbands should be keeping up with their wives doctrinally and encouraging them. If a women is "ahead" of her husband in doctrine she should not use this knowledge to his shame. I would never insist that we leave the church my husband has chosen for us to worship at because I did not believe everything it teaches. That would be very unsubmissive of me. I do think women should be able to discuss theology but just like all wisdom women might obtain they should not use it to exort authority over their husbands.
I'm really tired now so I hope I made sense.
One question that I thought I might add. Do you ladies who think we shouldn't discuss theology believe that women's Bible studies are wrong. Another thing, we do discuss doctrine on here alot. Crystal, where do you draw the line on how deep a theological discussion goes?
Some husbands may not want their wives discussing home business or home school with other women.
I don't know, I guess it depends on what kind of husband you have.
I'm not making much sense. Maybe I'l try to be clearer in the morning.
Night, night
I couldn't agree more, Crystal! As a woman with a wonderful, but very busy, husband, I find it is not helpful for me to engage in doctrinal discussions and debates online, because I usually end up forming my own conclusions before my husband (as my God-appointed head) has a chance to lead me. It can, in fact, cause a great deal of discontentment and disrespect in a marriage. I really believe that God is faithful to lead wives through their husbands as they are patient to submit to his teaching. If something comes up whether in my personal devotional time or in discussion among friends, I have tried very hard over the past year to ask my husband to look into it before I become emotionally involved! How easily I can be deceived without my protector! How easily I can become discontent with what he does or doesn't do. If I feel that my husband isn't taking enough "leadership" (as defined by me), I can honestly look back and see how often I've run ahead instead of following him. That has bred disrespect more times than I can count, and its my fault! I'm glad I can come to this blog and trust that I will be challenged to be what I KNOW I'm supposed to be.
Reading Nancy Wilson's article "Two Hedges" revolutionized my understanding of the parameters of protection under my husband.
Zan: You are right that it is impossible to not discuss doctrine or theology to some extent because it influences the core of our beliefs, you know what I mean. I'm just trying to encourage and equip women and so if a conversation starts going in a direction that could potentially lead to a debate over doctrine or theology (such as Calvinism, denominations, etc.) I'm going to steer it away from there. I want us to be able to openly discuss things, but I trust that you are not looking to anyone here as your authority, rather that you are looking to the Lord and your husband (I know you aren't, I'm just speaking in general terms here).
I don't have a problem with Bible studies, though I think you have to be careful, as always.
It is easy to get pulled away from our primary purpose as daughters, wives, and mothers, in good things -- even Bible studies or relationships with other women or good discussions on blogs! We just always have to be careful!
Alyssa, Thanks for your beautiful comment. Do you have a link for that article? Email me a copy if so! Thanks!
I agree, Crystal,
Some doctrinal discussions are, historically, controversial such as Calvinism, eschatology, etc... I think that it can be pretty pointless to argue these things with fellow believers (even among men). I have seen a lot of hurt feelings and broken friendships. Women do get more emotionally involved than men in a lot of things. However, I think discussing feminine dress and homeschooling to be controversial and some women may be tempted, by reading this blog, to rebel against their husbands. Whatever women discuss whether it is online or person to person, they should be testing every word to see if it will bring God glory. Not an easy thing to do, but it should be our goal as Christians. I, totally understand why you avoid some subjects and would probably steer clear of them if I had my own blog.
I do think women should be encouraged to study the Word and doctrine so that they may be able to apply it to their lives. God comes first in my life and then my husband. If my husband did not encourage me in this area then I would still want to build up my relationship with God. There are a lot of women out there who are married to unbelievers and the only way to discuss their beliefs are with other women or men of the same belief. ( I actually think it is more appropriate to discuss these things with members of the same sex, it just looks better). I knew a pastor who would visit a Christian woman while her unbelieving husband was at work to tutor her in the scripture. Wrong, wrong, wrong! Her husband was very upset when he found out that she was meeting him alone. Not a very good witness to him. Yet, he said he would be fine if Christian women visited her. I could go on and on about this but I did want to let you know that I partially agree with you and think it is a good idea to avoid certain subjects (especially among Christians)and don't fault you or think you are off your rocker for doing this.
-Zan
So sorry for posting and leaving a bit of an uproar. The flu went through this house so I have been busy with the girls while trying to stand upright myself.
I really didn't want or ask others to share their spiritual struggles with their husbands. Thank you so much Liz and Katie. Yes, it has been going on for a long time (since we were married - things were different when we were dating)and I didn't mean to bash him. It is such a thin line for I do need encouragement and insight in order to keep going. Other women can't always do that without details. Granted, what I typed is just a very thin slice of the whole picture. The comment section on a blog in no way is going to make anyone seem clear 100% in what they are saying. I was trying to be choosy in my details out of respect to him. In retrospect, I can see how posting some of this on a blog wasn't the wisest. Again, it is so easy for things to be taken wrong and some things are best one on one.
I just have so many questions from some of the books I read from our church library. There is so much I would like to discuss with him.
I have read CTBHHM, The Fruit of Her Hands from Nancy Wilson, and Feminine Appeal by Carolyn Mahaney. I find myself reading them frequently. The problem, I respected him, and submitted to him for years in accordance to these books (more importantly the Bible) wanting to be a Godly wife. In the end, I got lied to, manipulated, placed in debt . . basically I became a doormat and lost myelf with some even bigger problems in my lap. I found myself depressed and thinking very poorly of myself. Again, I hope I am not going to far. I just want you to see my predicament. At times, I actually am disgusted with myself for reading the books because I fear I will be placing myself in another harmful situation.
Anyway, I know I must stay humble and submissive. I just know there is that fine line with that as well. I want to be led, but I also want to be respected and grow. I do see things changing. I just pray it actually sticks this time. I finally broke last summer. I felt so bruised and beaten into a corner (figuratively). I had no where else to go but to start walking myself out of it. Since then he has been trying to learn how to love me as a Godly husband. Oh for it to actually stick this time! I think the both of us have a lot to learn from the first 8 years of marriage.
Oy, I am rambling. You know, even growing up I would stay with the men to dicuss money and politics. How many times can you discuss cooking and kids before you start to loose your marbles? My brain hs become soup over the years in some respects. While those things are our Godly duties to learn how to do from one another, can we not talk about other things as well? Sadly, yes, I have noticed women having a harder time discussing an issue without taking it personally. I guess that is why I always have leaned towards the men. Only since I have gotten married have been able to tolerate hanging with the girls for an extended period of time. But even then I long for "Meat." I think as long as you go back to your "head", it is o.k. Which places me right back with having to email my pastor so I am on a hamster wheel down on my knees praying for strength.
Luv4Home: Do you have an older, Godly woman living close by who could give you some counsel and encouragement? Perhaps your pastor's wife? I would strongly encourage you to find one or two older women mentors locally who could give you help during this time.
Do you get the Above Rubies magazine? That might also be an encouragement. You could also get a copy of The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace. Another encouraging book.
I think it is really hard for any of us to give you counsel/direction without knowing much about your situation. The only thing I can tell you is that God will never give you more than you can bear. He will give you the grace and wisdom and help and direction that you need. He is trustworthy!
I think it is good that you discourage theological discussions on here, not because I think that women should not discuss doctrine or know what they believe, but because I think that it is not always the bent of your blog. However, I guess some of the issues that you tackle could be percieved as doctrine.
Anyhow, it is so hard to find the right line between saying something bad about your husband and just being quiet. For many years I did not tell anyone things that happened at home and later when I found out my husband had a brain disease that had progressed badly, I felt so bad for never speaking to anyone about it. There is a time to speak up about things, but it has to be done in the right way and to the right person. Sometimes it is easiest to talk to someone who does not know you from anyone or your husband and will never meet him and think that he is a bad guy for what you said, yet you get some advice. I understand what you are saying C.A.
Post a Comment
Links to this post:
Create a Link
<< Home