On My Soapbox
This morning in our family worship time, we were reading in Isaiah and Jesse and I got to talking about evangelism and the problems in most modern evangelistic movements. So much of the time, it seems that people think they need to stoop to the levels of the world in order to evangelize. This mentality of, "the only way to reach the world is to become like the world" -- to use the world's methods, the world's music, the world's movies, the world's lingo, and so on.
Do we need to "fit in" with the world -- look like them, talk like them, act like them, dress like them -- in order to witness to them?
I shout a resounding "NO!"
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."—1 Corinthians 1:23-24
We don't need to water down the Word of God, we don't need to make it more "palatable," we don't even need to use sodomites to reach sodomites. If all we have to offer the world is a recycled form of what they already have, what is the point for them to even turn to Christianity?
It is high time we are shaken out of our complacency and seek to walk in truth!
Read an excellent sermon by C.H. Spurgeon.
Sigh. I feel better now. I needed to get that off my chest. :) I'm jumping off my soapbox to go upload some pictures of my precious daughter.
Do we need to "fit in" with the world -- look like them, talk like them, act like them, dress like them -- in order to witness to them?
I shout a resounding "NO!"
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."—1 Corinthians 1:23-24
We don't need to water down the Word of God, we don't need to make it more "palatable," we don't even need to use sodomites to reach sodomites. If all we have to offer the world is a recycled form of what they already have, what is the point for them to even turn to Christianity?
It is high time we are shaken out of our complacency and seek to walk in truth!
Read an excellent sermon by C.H. Spurgeon.
Sigh. I feel better now. I needed to get that off my chest. :) I'm jumping off my soapbox to go upload some pictures of my precious daughter.
posted by Crystal Paine at 1:18 PM
28 Comments:
AMEN!!
I shout "No" as well!
You hit the nail on the head!
Agreed!
Good sermon....God used Spurgeon in an amazing way!
Thank you for this post, Crystal. I was reading another blog that made me sad because they were all talking about having to 'be like the world to win the world'. It broke my heart to read what they(and the many commentators) were saying. So I quit reading and clicked over here and there was your wonderful post and the wonderful sermon by Spurgeon!
AMEN!!!!!
I'll add my voice to the superfluity, if that's a word.
In Christ.
It's already been said, but I do give a wholehearted "Amen" to your post, Crystal :).
It saddens me how the church has adopted the world's philosophy to evangelize. We are to be a shining light to the nations. If we become just like non-Christians, the antithesis between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent is lost. We are a city on a hill, set apart to be different from the world - a light in the darkness!
The seeker-friendly movement has adopted a "stealth approach" to Christianity. If we become just like them we can trick them into becoming Christians! Perhaps I'm exaggerating a bit, but not much. I go with my family to a church that touts being seeker-friendly, so I speak from close association. My church is "traditional" compared to many other churches in my area.
Good post, Crystal. I have been thinking a lot about this issue of evangelism lately. There is certainly a biblical doctrine of evanglism that we must understand and apply, but when we examine the practice of most believers, we are forced to conclude -- "That just ain't it."
I agree that we should not use sodomites or other unrepentant unbelievers in our evangelism efforts. Furthermore, we cannot rationalize this by saying they are "just acting."
Anyway, sorry to shove you off the soapbox :-), but I just wanted to add my cents sense and say I agree with you.
Awesome post! I don't really follow Spurgeon's work but that was good. I have been to a few churches just like he preached againt and I either felt like I was at a rock concert or there was no preaching, no word of God. No fire coming from the pulpit. Luckily the church I attend (and have been attending for just about 5 years) is old fashioned in values yet we still have a good time worshiping the Lord without looking silly. :-)
Crystal,
My husband and I have felt this way for so long. It seems we have had more pressure for "believers" to conform to the world then non-believer's. It can be a lonely road but we found that our family grew so much as a result. You and Jesse are right on track.
oops:>) I meant:
It seems we have had more pressure from "believers"~ that our family conform to the world then non-believer's.
Right on Crystal, right on!!
I realize all the other commenters think this post is great, but I came away from it with a different take. I'm sure it wasn't intended this way, but arrogance is what comes across to me. I'm glad Jesus was willing to become like us to reach us and I'm glad Paul was willing to be a "gentile to the gentiles," "a Greek to the Greeks" and a "Jew to the Jews." I think there will be many people quite surprised in heaven when our Lord tells them their smugness kept others from coming to him. We should never endorse sin to reach the world, of course, but I believe God can use different versions of music, different styles of dress and different methods to reach people. I have a really hard time with people who look so condescendingly at others who are doing great works for Christ, but with a different approach. I think we should be more concerned with living our lives wholeheartedly for God than we are judging others because they are so-called "too-worldly" in their approach. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of the self-righteous Pharisees, in the way they judged Jesus for things they considered sacriligeous. Many, many people have been brought to the Lord by those willing to connect and relate to the world. Far be it from us to look down on their good works because it doesn't fit "our" view of what a Christian should look like.
'Many, many people have been brought to the Lord by those willing to connect and relate to the world. Far be it from us to look down on their good works because it doesn't fit "our" view of what a Christian should look like.'
Anonymous:
If 'many' people have been brought to the Lord by these methods, where is the fruit of it? Jesus did NOT become like us to win us.....we're sinners and Jesus NEVER sinned. Jesus ate and fellowshipped with sinners but he never conformed to their behaviours or became like them. Romans 12:2 tells us to not conform to the world.
I do agree with you in that 'our' view doesn't matter but a Biblical view does. We must use Biblical methods to win the lost....God DOES care how we do things, a good example of what happens when we try to do things 'our' way instead of the Biblical way is in 2 Samuel 6. David tried to bring the ark of God using his own methods instead of Biblical ones and we see the result of that in vss.6-7...Uzzah tries to keep the arc from falling so he reaches out to touch it and it made God angry and God killed him. Uzzah's intentions were probably good but his methods were not Biblical.
Another problem is that many Christians are only portraying one side of Jesus....the one who puts children on His lap. But Jesus was a HARD preacher.....most of us couldn't haven taken His preaching....Yes, He loved sinnners but He also hated sin. Jesus was God in the flesh and all aspects of God are holy....Jesus had no problem telling people when they were wrong.
The Bible says in I Cor.6:14-17
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God;........Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you,"
And James 4:4 says
"Ye adulterers and adultresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
Romans 12:2 "And BE NOT CONFORMED to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."(emphasis mine)
I could go on but I'll stop. The bottom line, yes, we're to love the world but with a Biblical love and with Biblical methods, not worldly. If you use worldly methods, you will get a worldly result.
Mrs. B,
I think you might be misunderstanding my post. I am not saying we need or should resort to ungodly worldly actions to win people. Not in the least. We should never compromise the truth of the Gospel for the sake of winning people over to God. I am not saying we need to sin to connect with sinners. What I am referring to is connecting with the world in a way that is not against God's word. For example, who is to say that one particular type of music is the only Godly music and the only right music to win people to Christ. By the way, I did read Crystal's post from awhile back on the evil of the "beat," contemporary Christian music, etc. I am just not convinced that her take on it is the only correct one. I, personally, love hymns and do not at all like our church's "contemporary" service, yet I know that many people have come to the Lord through it and have grown in the Lord through it. Far be it from me to tell them that they are wrong because only hymns and "such and such" type of song are honoring to God. God looks at the heart and if their hearts are worshipping God through their type of music, we are way out of place in judging them. This is just one example. Another might be in dress. I would never condone immodest dress for the "sake of the gospel." Of course not. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with people - men and women alike - dressing in T-shirts and jeans to do some street witnessing to the inner city folks. If people go in to witness in a fashion that is so different than the ones to whom they are witnessing, the "oddness" gets in the way of the message. I want nothing in my life to get in the way of reaching others. (God said woman should not dress like man, he never said woman must only wear dresses.) You asked what is the fruit of winning non-Christian people by "these methods." I can tell you from personal experience. In our youth group, at times they played what could be considered "contemporary Christian music," we had fun activities to attract the youth of our town, at times the message was presented via movies or other ways that I'm sure you or Crystal would frown upon (but which I do not see in any way to be out of line with the Bible). Fast forward 20 years ... out of that youth group, almost every single person is a truly dedicated, God-honoring Christian. Several are in full-time ministry, including some in foreign countries. A large majority of those not involved in full-time ministry are actively involved in their churches. Many, many souls have been added to the Kingdom and thousands have grown in their walk with God because of that youth group. Had the youth group not reached out in a way that connected with the culture of the youth, who knows what would have transpired. Some still would have come to the Lord and some still would have grown in the Lord, but quite a few would never have set foot in the door.
You repeatedly quoted about not being conformed to the world. I wholeheartedly agree with that statement, however your take on it and my take on it are much different. I assume you are taking it to mean dress, music, styles, etc. I am taking it to mean that when we are Christians, we strive to live a life following God and his ways and we do not engage in sin in the way the world does. For example, the world says it is fine to engage in sex outside of marriage. God says no way. Because I do not conform to the world, but choose God's way, I choose the way of sexual purity. The world says abortion is fine. God says he has knitted us together in our mother's womb. Because I do not conform to the world, I would never call abortion an acceptable action. The world says we should be tolerant of homosexuality. God says it is abominable. Because I am not conformed to the world, I do not condone homosexuality. If I could sum this all up, it comes down to this. I believe the phrase "conform to the world" relates to sin. I don't believe it relates to a certain type of dress, culture, music, etc. When people start going that route, I really believe they are in danger of becoming legalistic and adding to the Scriptures. I think we need to stick with what God has told us in the Bible and not someone's "expanded interpretation" of what is in the Bible. Plus, if you interpret "conforming to the world" as meaning other than relating to sin, where do you draw the line? The world uses cell phones ... are cell phones therefore wrong? The world uses computers (and for some very ungodly purposes) ... does that mean we should all stop using computers? I see the argument against types of music and dress in the same way. The world likes such and such type of music. ... does that mean we must never use it? The world likes certain fashions ... does that mean we can never wear them (if they are not immodest)? I don't know if you can see what I am getting at, but my main point is that God can use many different approaches to reach the lost and I believe we are harming his work when we limit him to work only the way we think is acceptable.
Hi Anonymous,
I don't have the time to go into everything you mentioned so I'll only just talk about a couple of things.....over at www.cshayden.blogspot.com he has a post called 'Scripture, Not the Status Quo, is the Starting Point' that talks a lot about what we're discussing here.
"When people start going that route, I really believe they are in danger of becoming legalistic and adding to the Scriptures."
-'Legalism' is a favourite buzzword for evangelicals. The Biblical definition of 'legalism' is adding to salvation. In other words someone says 'you must do this to be saved.'--they're saying that Christ isn't enough. Galatians covers this pretty well. However just because someone has standards that they believe are based upon the Bible, it does NOT make them a 'legalist'.
"God looks at the heart and if their hearts are worshipping God through their type of music, we are way out of place in judging them."
-God decides what is acceptable worship, not us. We must search the Scriptures because they show us what God wants for us in EVERY aspect of life. No, not everything is 'thou shalt not' but God will give wisdom to those who are truly seeking truth. Just because someone is sincere in their worship, it doesn't make their worship Biblical or acceptable to God.
"The world likes certain fashions ... does that mean we can never wear them (if they are not immodest)?"
-No, as long as you're using the Bible as your standard for modesty and not just culture.
"If people go in to witness in a fashion that is so different than the ones to whom they are witnessing, the "oddness" gets in the way of the message. I want nothing in my life to get in the way of reaching others."
-NOONE is saying that you have to dress 'oddly'. I've seen pictures of Crystal and she certainly doesn't look 'odd'.
"(God said woman should not dress like man, he never said woman must only wear dresses.)"
-On our news last night there was a story about a boy who is suing his school because he wants to wear a skirt to school and the school doesn't want him to. Do you think they should let him? No where in the Bible does it say that men can't wear skirts or dresses? The problem with 'culture' is that it changes and mostly it is changed by people who push things to the extreme until they're no longer considered extreme.
As a Christian, when deciding what is right and wrong we must ask ourselves 'What does the Bible say?' Pragmatism and 'results-oriented' ministry is not Biblical. Just because something seems like a good idea to us doesn't make it Biblical or God-honoring. God has certain ways He wants things done. The Old Testament is full of examples of ways He chose to do things that seemed strange to people. (ie: The healing of Namaan and the walls of Jericho falling down) God says in I Cor.1:21,23&25:
'....it please God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe. But we PREACH Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;....Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.'(emphasis mine)
In 2Timothy 3 it says 'This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.(It then lists a whole host of things we see now)...lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.' (emphasis mine)
In 2Timothy 4:2 it says 'Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE.'(emphasis mine)
God says in His word that He has chosen 'preaching' as His main method of evangelizing. It may seem 'foolish' to us but God's ways aren't our ways....His ways are ABOVE our ways.
In I Thess.5:22 it says to 'Abstain for all APPEARANCE of evil'. Not just abstaining FROM evil but from the APPEARANCE of evil.
I suggest you head on over to CS Hayden's blog if you want to read more....he's MUCH better at talking about these issues than I am. I don't think there is any use of me saying anymore on this. Of course you're welcome to respond to what I've said but I think I'm done. If you do choose to respond, I would challenge you to quote and use Scriptures to back up your points.
In Christ,
I think it best if I, as well, end this discussion. By your response, it is obvious to me that you are greatly misinterpreting what I am saying. I could spend hours writing a response, backing everything up by Scripture, but I honestly don't see the point. I don't think anything I say will change your mind. In addition, if you twist my comment about clothes around to say that I think boys should wear be able to wear skirts to school and if you are going to pull semantics on me in regards to my comment about bordering on being legalistic, any further discussion is fruitless, even without mentioning your crack about "results-oriented" ministries. By the way, we didn't seek results, we sought God and when we did, he answered and brought many to him. Besides, if results are souls are being saved and Christians are growing, then being "results-oriented" is good. (By the way, I never said Crystal looked "odd" and I never said you were a "legalist." Please don't put words in my mouth. I am not a name-caller. I was simply talking in general terms.)
To be truthful, I am deeply insulted by some of your comments. You make it out like I am some poor excuse of a Christian who is following the world instead of seeking God. I am a deeply committed Christian who gages each and everything she does by the Bible. I have sought God and his Word on all of these things. Thank God, he is the one who judges me, not you. Just because I have come to a different conclusion than you and just because I can see God working when instead you judge, doesn't make me a poor Christian. Frankly, when I read the Bible, I see God coming down hard on those who think they are better than others, and that is what I see from you, not only in response to my post, but in several others you've written as well. (For example, do you really think it was Christ-like to criticize Jessica and her post to everyone reading Crystal's blog? Did you seek God and the Bible before your wrote your negative comments?) You can look down upon my church and my former youth group because their practices don't meet "your" standards. Thank God, we don't live by your standards, we live by His standards. All of us need to answer to God, not to man. You can say our worship is not acceptable to God, but that doesn't make it so. I know the hours we spent on our knees, seeking God's face. He said if we seek him, he will be found. He didn't say if we seek him the way Mrs. B says he must be sought he will be found. I remember many a Sunday night after church, gathering together and praying for hours. We spent years studying and memorizing the Bible together. Our hearts have always been in tune with following God's word and his ways, despite the judgement you are casting upon us.
As Christians, we should be supporting one another, not pulling one another down. We should be displaying the humility of Christ, not the pride of self-righteousness. When things are clear in Scripture, there is no room for discussion; however when things are not clear, there is room for debate. For example, if you feel a certain type of music or a certain type of worship is wrong, then by all means don't participate, but then don't turn around and look down on others who don't share your convictions.
I am going to close for now and end this discussion on my part. I felt it necessary to respond, but I don't see it being profitable for me to continue being part of this discourse.
Anonymous: I know there are different perspectives out there and appreciated reading yours. Mrs. B alludes to a blog in one of her comments and I'm wondering if it is the one at choosinghome.com. Anyway, I mention it to you because I think you would find the discussion there very insightful and encouraging.
(I hope that if it isn't okay to put the name of the site on here, Crystal will edit accordingly (I understand this is her blog, so her discretion)- but I hope it's okay. (I notice you have lots of links to other blogs on your sidebar).
Anne,
I love choosinghome.com. It is my absolute favorite blog and I have gleaned great things from it. One thing I especially like (and probably partly motivated my earlier responses) is the humility and gentleness I see in all five of the writers over there. Because of that and their openness to God's Spirit, as opposed to their judgment, I am urged to grow in my walk with God and change anything in my life that doesn't please our Lord. I love, too, how they are open to differing opinions (on things that are not essentials of the faith). They truly portray Christ's love.
Anonymous, thank you for commenting. I appreciate your thoughts and I apologize if anything I said came across as self-righteous. My intent was not to be looking down on other methods, but rather to hold up Scripture and the Truth of God's Word as sufficient. We don't need to water it down. God's work, done in God's way, will produce God's results. Duty is ours, the results are God's.
I do ask that you consider your attitude towards Mrs. B. Some of your words towards her did not seem to be very charitable. I encourage you to follow what you were writing about --- love and overlook, even if you don't agree. If you have a concern, come to me or another privately. May God bless you as you seek to glorify Him with your life.
Anne, thanks for bringing up Choosing Home. I love Jenna and Molly (don't know the other ladies personally) and so appreciate their ministry. Maybe we don't always agree on everything but we have the same vision and desire -- to encourage and equip other women!
Anonymous: I ran across the idea from a comment today that when we truly love someone, we don't see them as "a project, or as a representative of what's wrong with our culture these days."
I thought this was so profound, but I think God also showed me how this could apply to those of us who have differing viewpoints on some things than some of the ladies here.
Are we viewing bloggers or commenters on blogs where we have some different takes (like here) as simply "representatives of what's wrong with *Christianity*?" Instead of as individual people we are called to love? I know I have been guilty of this.
My background includes being hurt by a church that was very isolationist and judgemental, all in the name of God's Truth. (Not saying this is what Crystal does).
So I know it can be hard for me personally to not feel insulted by the idea that if we aren't in agreement on certain things with others that we are just being dismissed by comments of "being like the world" or "lacking discernment."
Phew, I thought it would be okay- or else I wouldn't have posted the site, but I'm glad! I've "known" Molly in various locales in the cyber-world for about four years and she is a great gal!
Anne: Great thoughts!
I have a lot of areas to work on in my life -- one of the biggest things I'm currently working on asking God for grace to cultivate is a meek and quiet, loving spirit. I know that it is not my nature to be so. But, I desire to be so filled up with Christ's love that when anyone "bumps" into me, Christ's love spills out upon them.
I know that I can come across as rather strong at times -- and I know I have offended people in the past by how black and white I am. I'm working to learn how to communicate what I believe in a loving manner. So, bear with me as I continue to be molded into the likeness of my Saviour.
A lot of times I will post things for the sole purpose of making people think and search the Scriptures and examine their life. It is all too easy to just "go with the flow" and never question why we believe what we believe or why we do what we do. But, I'm not setting myself or my beliefs up as the standard. If you search the Scriptures and come to a different conclusion than me, I'm not going to judge you for that, believe me. :) Yes, there are many areas which I feel are black and white, but, if you don't feel that way, I'll still love you. :) And, if you are ever offended by what I say, do come and tell me. I have so much left to learn and appreciate loving rebukes.
That's awesome Crystal! What's neat is that I want the same thing too and am in that sometimes messy "molding" process too! :)
Crystal,
I appreciate what you are saying about considering my comments to Mrs. B. I know I came across very strongly - I think Anne's last comment hit the nail on the head:
"So I know it can be hard for me personally to not feel insulted by the idea that if we aren't in agreement on certain things with others that we are just being dismissed by comments of "being like the world" or "lacking discernment." " That's exactly how I feel. Her post came across to me that, because I don't agree with her, I couldn't possibly be following God's way. My intention was not to be mean towards Mrs. B, but rather to stand up against the judgment I felt heaped my way and the way of everyone who holds different convictions. If you look back at my three posts, you'll see that my first one was just making a comment. Then, Mrs. B responded questioning the "fruit" of those who have been brought to the Lord through alternative methods. My second response was simply meant as a clarification for her. I thought I was being helpful to respond. Next thing I know, I am being lambasted (or at least that is what it felt to me). My knee jerk reaction was to stand up for the work of God that I know is of him and the people I know are truly serving him, including myself. I truly do want to display that humility of which I speak, but at the same time, I don't want to stand by idly while my walk with God is being attacked. Does this make sense?
Anonymous: WOW! I was home sick this morning so when I clicked on here for your response, I was very surprised. I had no idea that you felt I was attacking you, personally,....to me we were people with opposing viewpoints having a discussion.
I sincerely and humbly offer you my apologies. It was NEVER my intention to hurt you in any way.
Again, I'm sorry.
Mrs. B,
Thank you so much for your kind response. Blogs are great, but one of the dangers is that people reading the blogs take things in a way in which they weren't intended. I'm sure if we were talking face to face, the conversation would have been completely different. I wouldn't be surprised if mine came across like I was screaming at the top of lungs, waving my arms frantically. Not at all! (You'd also probably never know that I am a very shy, reserved, "mind my own business" type of person from reading my post, huh?) I'm glad we can end this amicably. My stomach has been in knots all weekend over this and I almost didn't even check back for fear of upsetting myself again. I'm glad I did.
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