Don't marry career women
Thanks to two readers for pointing me to this very interesting article from Forbes.
Here's the opening:
Update #1 - 6:10 p.m.: I'm not sure what happened, but about 15 minutes after I posted this, it disappeared off the Forbes website. I've looked everywhere and can't find it on there. I have the article in it's entirety (Thanks to Andrea) and so if you want to read it, just email me: biblicalwomanhood{at}sbcglobal.net. I was surprised Forbes would publish something like this so maybe they changed their mind? I have no clue, but if anyone finds that it has reappeared on their website, please let me know.
Update #2 - 9:15 p.m.: The mystery is solved! Forbes pulled the article due to so much "heated response" they said. Hmm, wonder why? Then they put it back up with some side-by-side counterpoint article by a woman who obviously was a bit unnerved
My applause to Noer for saying what few others are willing to for fear of being ripped to shreds by the feminist crowd. For once, someone is willing to state the truth: Women who work full-time can't be as good of a wife. I don't understand what is so hard to understand. A woman who devotes 40 or more hours of her week exerting time, effort, mental capacity, and energy into a career is just not going to have as much to give to her husband.
Here's the opening:
Guys: A word of advice. Marry pretty women or ugly ones. Short ones or tall ones. Blondes or brunettes. Just, whatever you do, don't marry a woman with a career.Related: My husband sent me the links to these clips by Rush from today on this article: Clip 1 and Clip 2. Note: I'm not a huge fan of Rush (apologies to all you Mega Dittoes people!) but I thought he had some interesting things to say. Especially on the definition of FemiNazis. I never knew where that term was coined. Enlightening.
Why? Because if many social scientists are to be believed, you run a higher risk of having a rocky marriage. While everyone knows that marriage can be stressful, recent studies have found professional women are more likely to get divorced, more likely to cheat, less likely to have children, and, if they do have kids, they are more likely to be unhappy about it. A recent study in Social Forces, a research journal, found that women--even those with a "feminist" outlook--are happier when their husband is the primary breadwinner.
Update #1 - 6:10 p.m.: I'm not sure what happened, but about 15 minutes after I posted this, it disappeared off the Forbes website. I've looked everywhere and can't find it on there. I have the article in it's entirety (Thanks to Andrea) and so if you want to read it, just email me: biblicalwomanhood{at}sbcglobal.net. I was surprised Forbes would publish something like this so maybe they changed their mind? I have no clue, but if anyone finds that it has reappeared on their website, please let me know.
Update #2 - 9:15 p.m.: The mystery is solved! Forbes pulled the article due to so much "heated response" they said. Hmm, wonder why? Then they put it back up with some side-by-side counterpoint article by a woman who obviously was a bit unnerved
My applause to Noer for saying what few others are willing to for fear of being ripped to shreds by the feminist crowd. For once, someone is willing to state the truth: Women who work full-time can't be as good of a wife. I don't understand what is so hard to understand. A woman who devotes 40 or more hours of her week exerting time, effort, mental capacity, and energy into a career is just not going to have as much to give to her husband.
posted by Crystal Paine at 4:13 PM
54 Comments:
I posted this on my blog today too!
Page not found?
I just want to say that, since my husband did marry a career woman, how thankful I am that he has been so open to the total turn-around that God has required of us. In his family of origin, most of the women work and the men stay home. I'm grateful everyday that he was willing to step up to the plate and take on that responsibility.
Oh, and I don't think it's any coincidence that he makes more money than what is usual in his line of work, either. :)
God is faithful.
Amen, Rebecca! I basically could have written the same thing! :)
I could get to the page off of Donna's like on her blog.
Well, duh!
A monkey could've figured that one out. It is amazing how human beings miss the obvious.
I hate to beat women up, but if they think they can work 40+ hours a week, endure morning sickness and other hardships of pregnancy, raise kids, keep the house in order and still have time to nurture a marriage, they need to get a reality check.
That together time (and all that involves) between a husband and wife is SO important in keeping a marriage together.
I could write on this subject all day long, but I don't have time. Since being married and starting a family, I am so thankful that I can stay home to build up my husband and my marriage. I would have so much less time to do this if I worked.
I wonder how much this study cost?
I guess I see life in very simple terms because this seems so obvious to me. Both parents work = less time together and increases your chances for divorce. (No, REALLY?! AMAZING)
It is like the shocking fact that eating at McDonalds everyday will make you fat. (GASP!)
Zan, I know. It seems like a no-brainer. But, would you believe it? There is a huge, and I mean HUGE, outrage over this article. I did a quick search on Technorati on the bloggers linking to this article this morning and there were only a handful that were agreeing with it. There were many (including some really big blogs) just blasting it out of the water.
Women can't do everything and do it well. That's why God created men. :) We need men and women fulfilling their God-given roles to be a healthy society. No wonder we're dealing with so many dysfunctions today!
I feel so sorry for these ladies who feel like the only way to happiness and fulfillment is to try and do everything. The feminists have put so many pressures on women it's crazy!
Your comment made me laugh, Zan. Of course, you were completely right, also! I liked your way of putting it all, though :).
This is probably the most offensive article to women especially I have ever read in a mainstream publication. I am truly amazed that any woman, regardless of whether she has a career, could read this and not be offended since the article does imply that women are doormats who want to be dominated. (Not that being a housewife means being a doormat -- but this article implies that it does.) It's awfully offensive to men too since it implies that men are hapless little babies who need a mommy-figure to keep them from getting sick and to buttress their emotional health (whereas we women don't have similar needs). This article proves that it's not the feminists who are "emasculating" men but the people who think that all men need a mommy.
Maybe if these guys who are supposedly so miserable married to career women could pick up a broom once in a while or help with the kids, their lives would be a bit better. As it is, I think they have only themselves to blame. It's kind of ridiculous for them to think their wives can have a career AND do all the housework and childcare. To me, it seems like a no-brainer that no one can do that -- which is why the men need to pitch in and stop whining about feeling insecure that their wives make more money.
/end rant. Off to celebrate 9th anniversary to night with husband who makes considerably less than I do and is manly enough to care for his own health and to not be threatened by my salary.
Forbes moved the article and put up a response from a female editor:
http://www.forbes.com/home/2006/08/23/Marriage-Careers-Divorce_cx_mn_land.html
To "The Happy Feminist:"
I don't know how you could possibly have reached the conclusion you did. Essentially all it said was that two-career families have a rougher time making a marriage work. I read the article and didn't see in any way, shape, or form that it called women "doormats," or that men can't take care of ourselves. Are you sure you actually *read* the article?
I just read the response by the female editor, and it made me laugh. I knew it wouldn't be long before the feminist contingent tried to castrate the poor man for telling the truth. They just can't stand it.
God bless this man for writing the truth, I pray he stays strong and is not swayed by the feminist hysteria (i.e. "This is probably the most offensive article") that is now coming out. The comments section for the articles alone are scary.
By the way, I had no less than five men mention this article to me, stating that they either agreed with it, lived though part of it, or wish they knew all that before they married.
Some truth has been shined on the world, and God sure works in mysterious ways!
God Bless, and all you stay at home moms and wives, keep up the good work!
Take care,
Leigh
For a husband to be the primary breadwinner does not mean that the wife is a doormat. In fact, it usually is quite the opposite. My husband treats me like a queen and I'm "just a housewife." Also, for a husband to want and need his wife to care for him is not being a baby in my estimation - he's being a man. Men are wired by God to want to be loved, cherished, cared for, and respected (Is there any man reading this who doesn't want to be respected and have his wife dote on him? I'd like to know. I've never met such a man before.). Honoring, loving, serving, and giving to our husbands is our privilege. When we do this, we usually get the same and more in return. If we women want to be cherished and loved by our men, does that make us babies? I think not.
I guess I don't understand why feminists think it's the MEN who are asking the wife to try and do everything. I understand that some men want their wives to work (and in that case, they need to be willing to take on their share of the household responsibilities), but the majority of men, if given a choice, would rather the wife doesn't work and spends her time productively investing in the home, the children, herself, etc. Now that women are encouraged to pursue a career in addition, often to trying to juggle being a wife and mother, too, feminists complain that MEN are wanting their wives to be superwoman. The feminists were the ones who pushed for equality in the workforce, for women to be able to do all the jobs that men used to be able to do just fine themselves, men weren't out there pushing for that, so we can't blame the men for the resulting problems.
I read a lot of feminist websites and one thing that I have noticed recurring over and over is that feminists spend the majority of their time talking about what's wrong and pointing fingers at everyone but themselves. They love to criticize and mock men or anyone who dares oppose them. I would like to challenge these women to realize that criticizing, mocking, pointing fingers, and discussing what is wrong will never solve any problem.
I know that I often criticize feminist ideologies on this website because I feel that they have been very detrimental to our society. However, I try very hard to balance that criticism with real help and practical answers and solutions. I can't just say that I believe men should be the primary breadwinners and that women should be their husbands help meets, I also want to back that up with giving practical help to women on how to practice frugality in order to be able to stay home full-time, or ideas on how to make money from home so that they don't have to go out and get a job, or ideas on how to be your husbands helper and the blessings which result.
I'd love to see more feminists try to do the same. I probably wouldn't agree with their solutions, but at least I'd be happy to see them trying to do something worthwhile for the sake of women - which is what they say they are all about.
Criticizing the other party is easy to do, taking responsibility ourselves to be a part of the solution is a lot more work but it pays off in the end.
I'd love to hear others thoughts on this - whether you agree or disagree. I've been cracking down on comments so much recently because I dislike this website to be full of heated debates. But I think this is an issue which needs to be discussed and so I'd love to see more discussion and commentary on this. No matter what viewpoint you are coming from, feel free to chime in. All polite and respectful comments will be posted unless you are a banned user (Sadly, we have a few of those now - I have a "45 strikes and you're out" policy that I've recently had to enforce after some serious troll issues we had going on).
Did you agree with Noer's article - why or why not?
I did indeed read the article. And the counterpoint by Elizabeth Corcoran. I am very surprised to see Corcoran characterized as "domineering." All Corcoran has done is contradict what the original author said. If a woman can't even contradict a man without being considered "domineering," women are in worse trouble than I thought. Of course, the real person who is domineering is the original author who seems to think it is inappropriate for women to have the autonomy of an independent income or to earn more than her husband.
At the risk of being somewhat lengthy, I will explain why I think the author's original nine points advocate women being doormats. The original nine points can be found here(http://pandagon.net/2006/08/23/cowards-say-we-didnt-say-it-and-even-if-we-did-you-cant-prove-it/). I will reproduce them along with Amanda's explanations as to why they mean woman = doormat, since I think Amanda hit the nail on the head.
1. You are less likely to get married to [a career woman].
2. If you do marry, you are more likely to get divorced.
3. She is more likely to cheat on you.
(Amanda notes, "#1, #2, #3 are predicated on the notion that it’s fine for men to have alternatives to marriage that women don’t have.")
4. You are much less likely to have kids.
5. If you do have kids, your wife is much more likely to be unhappy.
(Amanda notes, "#4 and #5 are based on the idea that kids are men’s property but women’s work.")
6. Your house will be dirtier.
(Amanda notes, "#6 is based on the idea that women owe men their unpaid labor.")
7. You'll be unhappy if she makes more than you.
8. She'll be unhappy if she makes more than you.
(Amanda notes, "#7 and #8 are based on the idea that women owe men support and loyalty, but men are entitled to actively withhold support and resent women for having a life outside of servitude to them.")
9. You are more likely to fall ill.
(Amanda notes, "#9 is based on the idea that men’s very health is women’s responsibility.")
I know this is a forum whose author and readers believe quite different things than I do, so I appreciate you hearing me out. I try in my blog to support stay-at-home-moms (many of whom are feminists). It boggles my mind (and yeah I do find it "unnerving")that people are still so hostile the valuable services provided to our society by career women like me who work very hard outside the home for ourselves, for our families, and for our communities.
Crystal, I just saw your comment about disliking heated debates. I happen to be passionate about this particular issue, which is why I have weighed in.
I that feminist sites actually perform a valuable service by criticizing. Criticizing helps to free women from attitudes that may keep them from activiites (like pursuing a career) in which they might fluorish and serve others. Criticizing helps to change societal attitudes that might pressure women from taking on certain roles.
I also think that a lot of feminists do offer practical solutions and certainly are not averse to women taking responsibility. For example, I have written a great deal about Linda Hirshman. I agree she is unnecessarily unkind to homemakers but she is all about women taking responsibility by going out into the workplace and insisting on having a place at the table in our larger society. You may disagree with that approach but it is a constructive solution that involves action and responsibility by women.
Crystal wrote,
"For a husband to be the primary breadwinner does not mean that the wife is a doormat. In fact, it usually is quite the opposite. My husband treats me like a queen and I'm "just a housewife."
Just wanted to point out that the happy feminist did not say "all women who stay at home are doormats". She said that the *article* took that point of view. And she thinks it's a terrible, terrible article.
I think it's a terrible, terrible article, too. What's strangest about it is that it's not even about what most of us would really define as a "high-powered career woman". His definition of a "career woman" means 35 or more hours of work a week, earning 30K or more. Seems like by "career woman" he means "has a job at all".
-m
Thanks for having a discussion on this.
I'm a Christian SAHM, and I can honestly say that I find good points in both articles. From Noer's side, I agree that men need to be respected and that often (not always) both partners are unhappy when the woman makes more than the man. This was certainly true when I was first married. My husband was in medical school and so I was the primary breadwinner with my grad-school stipend and it drove me crazy. I also agree that homes with young children are MUCH more stable when the parents have time for each other and time for the kids, and this usually means that mom stays home with them.
However, I also see the counterpoint that there is value in women contributing to the workforce. I don't think this has to be an all-or -nothing proposition.
I am highly educated. My husband and I both went to an elite science college. We both went to graduate school in biochemistry, doing research in the same lab. Our boss had visions of both of us earning an MD/PhD and heading our own research programs someday, making a significant contribution in the battle against cancer. This was all fine and good with me before I had any guarantee that I would get married or have children. However, as soon as my husband and I got engaged, I started losing motivation in the lab because my heart wanted to spend all my time being a wife and mother. So I did. I stopped with a master's degree, and my husband is continuing with the MD/PhD route.
In the meantime (before our daughter was born last month) I went off to teach high school chemistry, and loved it. When our daughter and any future children are old enough, I intend to teach again. (And so, by the way, I totally disagree with Noer's point that "career women are unhappy if they quit to stay home with the kids." I couldn't be happier staying home, and I intend to for the next 20+ years. But after that, I'll be in my 50's and have some good career years left in me.
And in the meantime, I can be an even better wife and mother because of my education...it wasn't all a waste! When my husband comes home frustrated because his data is all overlapping, I can offer him practical suggestions because I've run into that same problem. He can bounce research ideas off me and we can have fruitful discussions. (One of his colleages once said to him "you have no idea what you have at home!!")
And when it comes time for me to homeschool our children, I don't have to be afraid of them not learning their high school science well enough :).
So, if I were writing that Forbes article, I'd say "go ahead and marry a career woman, but make sure she's willing to take a break to invest in you and your kids."
I am a Christian, stay-at-home, homeschool mom married to a lawyer/minister. We both found the article offensive to men and women and do not understand how the response could be characterized as domineering. It's a shame that both sides of womens issues are so unable to read "out of the box" in which they placed themselves. They (feminists and "biblical woman") will read articles such as this through the eyes of their prejudice.
Why do feminists still complain that women are being kept out of the work force?! Could somebody please show me? They keep blaming a "patriarchy society, " but every where I look I see encouragement for women going to college, taking 'control' (rather, losing control, if you ask me), of their bodies, getting careers, etc... Are we living in the same society? I don't see highschool teachers teaching female students to stay home, get married and have kids. That argument that society is forcing women to stay home and be men's servants needs to be retired.
M: I would like to see the entire article, so I could read the quote in context.
I think it is interesting that if men call women prostitutes it is a hanging offense, but if a woman calls a man a sperm doner it is laughed at as a joke to degrade men. I have recently on that Pandagon blog seen married men who work hard to support their kids and SAHW called just that. I'm just worried about equality, here.
Another thing, women need to stop bashing men and blaming them for their problems. Men have consistently let women have their way with so many things. I think it is because men just don't like to argue with them. They like peace. Unfortunately, this "peace" has caused many problems in our present family which is the basis of society.
Crystal, you were right on in your answer and Katie, I agree that there are many benefits to women working and getting an education in today's world.
One thing I was thinking about this whole feminists vs. anti-feminists debate is, that it will never be solved because feminists refuse to believe there are some major differences between the sexes. I'm talking physicaland emotional differences. They think that besides sexual reproduction organs they (the sexes)are the same.
It is a no-brainer to me that because I am the one with the ability to lactate that I should be home with the baby while one without ability to lactate is off at work. Now is lactating the only thing needed to care for a home and family? No. But it is a pretty big one. It is food for your off-spring. The combination between women being the ones who carry the baby, feed the baby, have softer voices, are physically weaker, can spacially think better, and inshort, deal with stress better (got the 'dealing with stress better' from National Geographic, a well-known supporter of traditional, consevative, Christian ideals...NOT!), that they should be the one to stay home. Now there are always exceptions because we don't live in a perfect world, but why kick against the way God (or nature, for you Big Bangers out there)designed us?
Until feminists see that women are generally better and have a God given gift in being primary caretaker of children they will never see that they are wrong.
Seems reasonable to me. If women who work full time can't be good wives, surely men who work can't be good husbands. We should all quit our jobs or quit our marriages.
Amanda, Part of being a good husband is working to support his wife.
Amanda proves my point that people like her think that men and women are the same. It is all or nothing with them to make things fair.
I read the response to that article and she couldn't really state any studies. All of her examples to prove her point were based on her own experience.
This idea that men and women are similar in everyway (except reproduction) is a myth that is sinking in sand. They insist that society accept this myth to make things fair, as they see it.
Well.... what about women who stay at home and have a job at home??? Like a home business sort of thing. =)
I didn't read the article as I don't have time right now but I did read all the comments!
I would have to say that I think it can hurt a guy if his wife is making more money than him. And yes, I belive it's 100% true that a marriage is more likely to fall apart with both of them working! ( I've seen it happen!)
Zan, Right on about the innate differences between men and women! Not only am I the one lactating, but emotionally I'm the one with the nurturing, "mommying" capability...it's not that my husband doesn't love our daughter. He is a great Dad and holds her and changes her diaper when he's home. It's just that deep down he wants to go "do battle" in the working world and provide for us...and so he does.
It all comes down to that tricky thing we call GUILT.
The feminists get so heated, vent and call for the article to be pulled because deep down, it makes them feel guilty.
It is their own guilt they must deal with.
I for one think this article is spot-on truth.
Coming from a former "feminist-save-the-world-I've-got-my-rights" woman turned to TRUE BIBLICAL FEMININITY!!! :) Praise God for his saving grace and revelation!
i agree with crystal and zan wholeheartedly. i posted at happy feminist's blog that i believe a woman was created to be man's helpmeet not the other way around. you notice when articles like this appear from time to time it's only the women saying "that's not true" but the men are quiet! hmmmmm.
I think many men today do want the wife/woman to be superwoman-have a job making good money, take care of him, the house,the kids. Many people today worship possessions and dont appreciate the simple things in life. Unfortunatly we have a generation of boys/young men who grew up with their mother's working outside of the home. They grew up in homes that were minimally cleaned, ate fast food/frozen dinners, and spent their evenings in front of a TV set because their mothers were too tired from work to interact with them. They dont realize how having a wife that stays home rather than spending her time and energy at work would be an unimaginable blessing...they are more concerned with having to give up items that they consider necessities-but are really luxuries.
I am personally struggling with this situation right now. I work 32-36 hours per week and mentioned to my husband one day when I was cleaning the house one weekend(on the verge of tears-physically and mentally exhausted after a long work-week) that I would like to drop my hours at work to 24 per week. He told me that if anything I needed to get a job making even more money than I do (per hour I already make more than he does). Together we make approx $90,000 anually. I feel like I am trapped. I like my job, and cant say that I would necessarily want to stay home full time, as we do not have any children, but my husband complains that I do not want to ever go out and do anything fun. Well, after working all week and having to take care of the majority of things around the house, I just dont have much energy left. I am praying a lot and trying to fill my mind and heart with Christian music and Bible verses while I go about my day. Trying to keep a positive attitude and not be resentful of my husband.
Basically, I just dont want all the blame to go to women. The majority of men today havent been brought up to be real Godly men. Men and women alike have discounted their importance in all aspects of life. Society has turned them into "the sperm donor".
You are wrong about men not speaking out. Just go look at Amanda's site.
Thanks for the great commentary everyone. Can I request that you please at least sign your name or initials when posting anonymously. It makes it hard for people to distinguish who is who and respond.
M - If you want to post a link to the article you mentioned by Noer and so we can see the context, I'll be glad to allow the quote. Taking a quote out of context an author can be made to say anything. Believe me, people have taken one sentence of mine out of context and built whole theories about what I believe which are completely off and then passed it around the internet. Context is important.
Anonymous who talked about the problems with men - I definitely hear you and appreciate your viewpoint. I may try to respond to your situation in a future post. If any of you who have experienced something like this have some counsel and encouragement for this woman, I'm sure she would appreciate it.
That's all for now. :)
Crystal,
I found that article that M was talking about. All you have to do is google Michael Noeh's name. The article was based on another article about wives vs. prostitutes and what would be better from a financial viewpoint. I didn't read anything in there about the writer personally hating women or calling all women whores. I thought the article was weird.
That being said, I totally agree with this article and think he is right on.
Just my general thoughts;
While I agree that both in society in general and very often in the church as well there has been much damage done by the forsaking of traditional family roles, I also feel that many Christians have overreacted and tried to set up arbitrary rules where God has not.
I think the bible has set up the priorities of a married woman as follows; Her husband, her children, her home and then any job or business she may take part in. Obviously there are other things (God comes first off course) but those are the ones I think that apply specifically to women.
At the moment my thoughts on this are that (to put it very crudely) a Christian woman can take up a job if she is already taking care of her husband, children and home. Whether it is possible to do this will vary from family to family but I think a lot of well meaning people want to set up hard and fast rules where liberty and wisdom should be applied. For instance, a couple without and children (for the moment) has fairly wide liberty to chose if the wife should work or not. God has never specified the amount of care the house needs, or that a couple must always eat a home cooked meal as opposed to take-away or eating out. Hence it is a matter of liberty that each couple should determine for themselves (with the wife submitting to the husband in the final analysis off course.) Now once children arrive there is not quite so much liberty because God has commanded Christians to train their children, and he has said that it is the wife who has the primary responsibility for the home and children. Off course, a couple could also decide that they want the wife to stay home even before there are children (or even if there never are any) for any number of reasons and that would be totally within their prerogatives too, since God never commands that a woman must go out and work. My whole point is that this is a matter of wisdom and discretion and not one that is as black and white as many people try to make it.
Getting back to the article in question, imho it is not a particularly good argument. Yes, a couple that both work will have to put more effort into making their marriage work, but that is no different from two people of different backgrounds, family types, or race coming together. Off course, like I said above, the couple may decide that it is in the best interests of the marriage of the wife’s job to go, but that is their prerogative to chose, not something that should be forced on them.
The risk of workplace affairs is something that must be considered, but the possible abuse of something or the actual abuse by others does not make that thing wrong in itself. I am not sure what effect the quoted statistics on the correlation between women’s work hours and divorce should even have on our decisions unless it turns out that that study was done using all genuine Christian women/couples.
A Christian man ought to chose a wife based on her fear of the Lord. A woman who truly fears the Lord and submits to his word will be willing to order her priorities according to what the bible states, irregardless of her success at a job. I know the author was not writing from a Christian perspective, but when Christians give a hearty ‘amen’ to this article it seems to me that they are drawing some correlation between if a woman works and if she fears the Lord, and I think that is going too far.
My two cents.
Like Crystal, I have little time for debating, BUT...I am enjoying this one! As I read through all the comments I got a little tickled, because kept reading the words "I think". :o) Well, it all boils down to 'What says the Lord', not 'what we think'.
We are dealing with two different world views, even among Christians. I won't even address the ones that are not Christians, because they couldn't care any less what God says.
Some Christians want to conform what God says to their beliefs, their wants, rather than conform their believing to what God says. I have no idea how Christians can know their Bible and believe a feminist world view? These debates are good for Christians, because it makes us think. I was raised as a feminist. My early adult, Christian walk was in a church with a feminist world view (which is part of the problem here!). I thank God for taking my blinders off, and giving me Light to HIS truth. And everyday He gives me more truth, and as Christians we have to be humble enough to conform to Him.
Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it is permissible! It's all about what God says, not what we think.
What I got from reading the article was, Noer just put together the results of around 10 research articles to come up with a conclusion. I am not sure how you can even agree or disagree with statistics reported by these social scientists. You can agree or disagree with the methods of the study or how the conclusion was drawn, but I don't see anyone doing that. He was not bashing women OR men, just stating the evidence drawn form these scientific studies. Noer is not even the one who performed the studies. He just saw the correlation between them all and put it into one article. He did not state that if you marry a woman with a career you WILL end up in divorce, only that it is more likely. Sure, there are many marriages where both man and wife work who have wonderful marriages, but the statistics show that they are in the minority. I guess I just don't understand how people can argue over statistics.
This story reminds me of a job situation. I once worked at a hospital that had a problem keeping nurses. The LPNs worked until they retired; the RN's would work 1-2 years then leave. Hospital management didn't understand why they couldn't keep RN's and they thought the RN pay scale was “too high”. The RN's laughed because they knew why the turnover was so high: RN's had options that the LPN's didn't have. A career woman isn't dependent on her husband for money, health insurance, etc. If the relationship isn't working, she feels she has options. Many SAHW's and SAHM don't have the same options so they can't make the same choices. Personally, I resent the tone of the article. In his world view, do woman have a role other than to please men? Not once does he mention that a man who is benefiting from two incomes should be expected to have a greater participation in "non-market" work. Traci
Isn't it funny that with all the strides in our society where women can make the choice of a career, that choosing a career of being a wife & mother is so maligned? And that men are raked over the coals because they WANT a woman to be a wife & mother?!!!
-Teresa
MM: Thanks for your second comment. I'd rather not bring up that discussion right now as the last time that was brought up, things went downhill quickly. I strongly disagree with your assessment of Scripture on a woman's role in that regard and don't want to get into that with this discussion. I'm trying to keep things fairly amiable and on track here. :)
Anon,
Men speaking out on Amanda's site? Where?
Do you mean the handful of whiny bitter boys who are bitter about their broken marriages and are blaming society. Maybe these "men" should take the social scientists' advice and stop marrying women who put themselves and their interests before marriage and family.
Real men need to start marrying real women to start real families.
I know a lot of feminists will hate this (and me), but this is how I see it. Insead of cursing me, try to be open minded and see my point of view, which is God's, as well.
MM, I agree with you to a certain point and disagree with Crystal to a certain point, but I think she is right in not going there with this post.
Crystal, I’ve been 'lurking' here for a while and immensely enjoy reading your thoughts and comments. You are very encouraging and uplifting.
I have to agree with one of the anonymous commentary’s that began with "I think many men today do want the wife/woman to be superwoman". I could have written that post myself. I'm glad to hear that there are other's that feel the same way I do. I would love to be a SAHW and eventually a SAHM but my husband wants me to work b/c there are luxuries that we have gotten use to that he is unwilling to give up (I would gladly give most all of them up). We've discussed it many times. He is working hard to build his own business and is working from home, which is truly a blessing but unfortunately, puts us in a position where I must work outside the home. Hopefully things won't always be that way and there will come a time (hopefully sooner than later) that I can stay home and take care of my husband and one day - my children. We live in an area that has a fairly high cost of living (and he is not willing to move to a lower cost area due to needing to be close to his suppliers) and I don’t have the skills necessary to work for myself, from home so that is not an option for me.
I struggle often with the feelings that I can't do everything and work too and quite often feel that I don't do ANY of it well. After working 40 hours per week, I don’t have the energy to do much of anything and truly feel like a failure most of the time when it comes to domestic duties. My husband is a blessing. He never complains about the messy house or the rushed dinners. I have no doubt that one day, he will be very successful and we won’t have to deal with this anymore but in the mean time, work I must.
I’ve read the article and found it interesting, both sides. What I find more interesting are the comments in regards to this article. The most recent posted comment states, "I think many men today do want the wife/woman to be superwoman". I found this intriguing and it left me wondering, “do men really want a wife to be superwoman, or does a wife who wants to be superwoman left feeling “overextended” if her husband takes the view of his wife as she tries to portray herself.
I, like Crystal, have been blessed with a husband of great integrity. Brian and I have a unique kind of marriage, not at all according to society’s standard of normalcy. Here’s the summary or our marriage, as God had designed it uniquely His own…I “own” the company we work for, my husband manages it. He is the visionary and the driving strength to growing our company, God’s way. He has a degree; I do not.
I manage all the company’s administrative and human resource responsibilities. I have a home office to connect to our downtown location. My husband leaves our home and works in the office. We homeschool our children; I am a wife and mother first. On this foundation we both wholeheartedly agree.
I submit to my husband (this is where I will began to loose people) as the Word instructs me I am to “submit to my husband, as is fitting in the Lord.” I am his helpmate. My husband is accountable for our family, in its entirety. I am accountable, as God has called me to be a mother and a crown upon my husband’s head.
From the world’s point of view I am the breadwinner, my husband is unpaid and has no ownership in our company. I am a very successful woman according to society’s standards! I have it all!!! But I never portray that worldly standard to my husband or anybody else. He is secure in our marriage and I am secure in my position in within our marriage relationship. We serve one another according to the Word of God. This is where I have people ask “Do you ever argue, of is your husband always right?” Yes, when we disagree we take our petitions, in prayer, before God. We pray together. We pray for each other. God will make our paths straight as we refocus our eyes upon Him should we slip into pride.
Yes, my husband lovingly helps me with things around the house everyday, even after a long day at the office. Not because he “has too” or because I’m left feeling pitifully overwhelmed, or nagging, but because he loves me and respects me as his wife. I serve him because I honor him as my husband.
All this to say, does it really matter who plays what role? Who makes “the” money or “more” money? Who washes the dishes? Who takes out the trash? Is marriage about keeping score? This is not how God ordained marriage according to scripture. These are worldly standards. Can a woman/wife be successful? Can she work outside the home? Yes, but what is her measure of success? Is it according to God’s calling on her life by serving our Precious Redeemer, in humble obedience, to fully serve others? Yes, our husbands are others, ladies!
Andrea
Mary; Thanks. I deleted it. I appreciate your desire to help us be a good testimony. Others are watching. I want them to see Jesus in me.
Iam a happy career woman and the primary breadwinner in my home. I pride myself on keeping a clean, warm, welcoming home for my husband and for anyone else who enters it. My husband is able to devote his time to teaching part-time, and to making improvements around our house. We are happily childless and so this arrangement works well for us. The Noer article, mentioned here and ad nauseum elsewhere, is insulting to both women and men--it assumes women have been put on earth to serve men purely as glorified housekeepers, and it assumes that men will actually base their decisions about whom to marry on how well a woman can mother them. I know few intelligent people who make major life decisions according to these criteria.
Devotion to making your home the kind of place you and your husband want it to be will always help you determine where you should be. That's what's important.
Crystal,
Hi, I understand if you don't want to get into that, but could I ask;
Within the context of this discussion, it is there a difference between a 'career woman' and a woman with a outside job?
Although I can agree that the article is not ideal, as it is not written from a biblical perspective, it seems to have important points. The best way to make a marriage work, statistically, is to pray together, and there is no guaranteed way to make a marriage last (or fail).
That said, the happy feminist brought up some reactions to the points made to the article which seem tenuous at best:
1. You are less likely to get married to [a career woman].
2. If you do marry, you are more likely to get divorced.
3. She is more likely to cheat on you.
(Amanda notes, "#1, #2, #3 are predicated on the notion that it’s fine for men to have alternatives to marriage that women don’t have.")
I disagree--it seems like he is saying that both men and women have such alternatives, and career women are more likely to exercise them. The alternatives are portrayed as negative for either women or men. Presumably what are so delicately called "alternatives" refers to extramarital sex.
4. You are much less likely to have kids.
5. If you do have kids, your wife is much more likely to be unhappy.
(Amanda notes, "#4 and #5 are based on the idea that kids are men’s property but women’s work.")
I don't see this either. The implication is that having kids is completely a woman's decision, if anything. There is no implication that the woman would care for these children herself in the point. Moreover, it is quite valid. Either giving up the career (presumably unexpectedly) or letting someone else do the bulk of the child-rearing could be disappointing.
6. Your house will be dirtier.
(Amanda notes, "#6 is based on the idea that women owe men their unpaid labor.")
No, again. The idea is that regardless of whose "job" it is to clean the house, more housecleaning will get done when someone has more time to devote to it.
7. You'll be unhappy if she makes more than you.
8. She'll be unhappy if she makes more than you.
(Amanda notes, "#7 and #8 are based on the idea that women owe men support and loyalty, but men are entitled to actively withhold support and resent women for having a life outside of servitude to them.")
Who said they were entitled to, or that such resentment would be good? Don't tell me that you have never been jealous without a good reason, perhaps even knowing that you should not be. Resentment is not always a conscious choice.
9. You are more likely to fall ill.
(Amanda notes, "#9 is based on the idea that men’s very health is women’s responsibility.")
No, that's a statistic. It doesn't make a value judgment.
By stating that women who choose to stay home are nothing but "glorified housekeepers" just confirms that women like you think housekeeping is degrading. Come to think of it, it is insulting to housekeepers, as well as women who stay home.
SAHW and moms are a lot more than housekeepers, btw. Try it.
The happy feminist is right about insisting on a place at the table of society. But what about all the tables? That would be true equality. Why not the table of military combat? Why not signing up for the draft at age eighteen. How about direct athletic competition against men to earn college scholarships? Yes it is funny how we want this and insist on that but only if we can win. Most feminist want rights and privileges but not obligations or responsibilities. I say total equality for women!!! I think that all who want those high powered jobs should be willing to hand over their daughters for frontline combat duty don't you agree. I mean you are for equality and equal rights aren't you? If a male does'nt sign up for the draft he is not eligible for financial aid for college or government jobs. Currently this does not apply to women. I think they're missing out. Why have'nt the feminist pushed all women's rights? Could it be politically incorrect? Women already have a license to kill their unborn babies why not send them to Iraq to kill Iraqi insurgents. The feminist argument just does'nt fly does it? The next time you want all the rights and privileges think about the obligations and responsibilities you don't have to shoulder.
MM: Yes, there can be a difference between a "career woman" and a woman who has a job outside the home for a season of her life. A career woman, by my definition, is someone who has a job for her own ambitions and is following a career path for her own self. Because of this, she will often readily sacrifice her family and her home and her marriage for the sake of her career (or she may not have any in the first place in order that it doesn't hamper with her career). That's how I view a career woman. I never see that this kind of woman could be glorifying God by pursuing a career because her whole ambition is to glorify herself.
On the other hand, as I try to make clear, I don't think it's always wrong to hold a job outside the home. The motives are what makes it right or wrong. For instance, if a woman is working full-time because her husband wants her to or asks her to and she is working because she is seeking to honor her husband, that's not a "career woman" in my definition. I think she should do everything she can to be frugal, to be content, and possibly consider finding ways to earn money from home on the side so that maybe someday she can be home full-time, but her husband may always want her to work, regardless of how much money she saves, how content she is, etc.
Crystal, what a great distinction. Thank you for that!
Hi Crystal,
Thanks for that clarification.
Could I ask you opinion on one more thing; Do you think the husband of a woman who asks her to work is doing anything wrong?
I would like to answer mm's last comment....It depends on why the husband is wanting the wife to work. If he has fallen ill, or is disabled and not physically able to work that is one thing. Or is it that he wants a life-style like the rest of the world who desire material possessions, elaborate vacations, huge homes while sacrificing their marriage and their children's upbringing to obtain all of these things? It depends on the situation.
Hi everyone, I have been reading the comments here over the past 2 days and I felt compelled to add my two cents. The debate here is not really feminist against non-feminist. It is between Christian and non-Christian. This is a battle that has been raging from the beginning of time and in our century has decided to disguise itself as feminism.
I am surprised that there is such an up roar from feminist groups against an article that is clearly not Christian and mostly statistical in nature. I can only assume that since this article implies that it is better to marry a homemaker by stating the opposite this threatens the agenda of the feminist group.
I am surprised however that Elizabeth’s rebuttal was purely experienced based and contained no real truth other than what see deemed to be so.
I have written a rebuttal to her rebuttal but it is far too lengthy for here. Crystal if you will allow me to post a link to my site where the article can be found I would love to share it.
thanks
lorriem
Lorrie - definitely you may post the link or the entire rebuttal.
I got the following email from Kristy and she said I could post it here:
I would love to read that article in it’s entirety if you could please email me a copy of “Don’t Marry Career Women”.
My interest stems from the fact that for a while I was. I graduated with a Bachelor of Commerce honors degree, and going to college was God’s plan for me as it got me to start looking seriously at Him, and allowed me to meet my husband who is a very godly man. Any how, when we moved from Canada to California, the only way we could afford it was for me to be working too, and again, God confirmed this to me, and now looking back I can see that He did it to accelerate my fledgling spiritual growth. (As a side bar, my family were “casual church goers” and so while I was technically raised in the church, this did not necessarily translate to a personal, vibrant relationship with Jesus, which I have now.) Any ways, it did not take long before I was literally BEGGING God to let me quit work. And five years later, He said yes.
That being said, even though me working was God’s plan for us for a short period of time, and I can see now where it gives me a basis of understanding to speak to women where we live in Southern California, it was hard, and without God’s grace and love guiding us, I can see where it would have really put a strain on our marriage. But God protected us all along, and now that I can stay home and focus on God and my family, I am thrilled. Of course there are days where I am envious of my husband getting out of the house when I get stir crazy, but we work through it! (A trip to the library in the evening before our daughter’s bed time, a drive, a browsing trip at a nursery, whatever) And my husband is so supportive of my interests – in fact, if I don’t call and register for my quilting class today, he may do it for me tonight! (Not that I don’t respect my husband’s wishes, but our daughter is teething and we had company for supper last night, so I was working through my to do list from urgent on down, and he understands that!)
Any ways, I guess what I am trying to say is having been there and done that, this article sounds very truthful. As a Christian woman I often lament the fact that the “women’s liberation” movement brought us to a lie. It was supposed to give women a choice, which still makes sense to me as some women are called to remain single, be partners in the mission field etc, but somewhere along the lines we (women as a whole) bought into the lie that we have to do it all – be wives, mothers, and successful career women.
I walked away from a highly successful career, everyone thought I was nuts (except my husband and family). I was being groomed for management, and had the respect of vice presidents and directors in my company. And I “threw it away” -- yup, and would do it again in a heart beat as it was the best move ever!
Since I made that “tragic error” things have worked out well! While I was at home with no children my husband encouraged me to take some seminary classes to help me learn more about God and His Word. I ended up with a graduate certificate in Christian Ministry. My husband loved hearing about what I was learning, and when our children are grown up, I think he would like me to go back. But I did that to be a blessing to my family and to know God better, and now that I am a mom of a 15 month old I don’t miss it. But am grateful for what I learned.
I think at the end of the day we are called to be true to who God called us to be, regardless of what the world says, because after all, we are created to glorify God and love Him, not please the world.
God bless you,
Kristy
I don't see how this article can be considered "offensive to men and women." It's FACTS. It doesn't address men taking PART of the "non-market" work, because that's irrelevant to the statistics he cites, which are about SPECIALIZATION (in other words, each person does ONE thing, and does it well). He DOES mention a full role reversal: "...this pairing, regardless of who is in the home and who is outside the home..." However, the statistics also point out that higher hours for women correlate with higher divorce rates, period. The only *logical* conclusion to draw from this is that, under normal circumstances, a husband should be doing the "market work" and a wife should be doing the "non-market work," because it has been statistically demonstrated to work better this way (unless divorce is your GOAL).
I think the illustration about the nurses is a good one. Why should a woman stay in her marriage if she is completely independent? For that matter, why shouldn't her husband leave her? She can bring home the bread and serve it up, too. Why would he hang around? He doesn't get her time, and she doesn't need him to provide for her? What's in it for him?
And there's the big question: If both spouses can, individually, meet all of their own needs, why get married at all? The beauty of marriage is the very synergy that Noer talked about: I can do my job and do it well, while my husband does his job and does it well, allowing us to do more, better, than either of us would be able to do ALL of it, alone.
Rachel Ramey
Please don't condemn the women who choose to nurture a career. I worship God with my work, as Paul instructed the Colossians. My house is not "clean" but it is liveable. My children's friends chose to spend time here (but only when I'm home). I guess that can count for something.
I am a 43 year old widow with four children, ranging from 13 - 21 and have been "alone" for eight years. I am thankful my parents insisted I have an education so that if something unlikely happened, I would be able to support myself and family. At present, I am a happy, well-adjusted, "single" widowed woman with teenagers at home and have to be a CAREER gal. I am not really alone. . . Christ is with me every step. He is my "husband". And only people that have a personal relationship with Jesus would understand that.
marykate
I agree with the theary that a wife and mom should not have a career. My mother was a career woman and my parents marriage failed because she was so angry at men. She was a very intellegent woman and in the 40's persued her career. My dad thought she would quit her job and be a mom and wife and we would have a home. Instead we had babysitters, nannies, Grandma... and finally they divorced. My two sisters and I are all diffferent. My older sister became an architect and her husband "made" her quit working to raise thier kids... she resents it ( I feel). My other sister used her beauty to attract men and then live a life of luxury and never had children or a career. She is married and seems happy and never had a career (unless you call finding a rich husband and redecorating their homes one). I have a degree in Fine Arts, a masters in Special Education and married an Air Force aAcademy graduate who did not like having a baby (after we had one). So, I divorced at 26 and babysat other kids, so I would not have to leave mine... and after many part time jobs managed to get my masters done. I ended up finding out that my son(at age 14) has a genetic arthritis disease. I am so glad I raised him and that I was able to have the patience to find out why he could not sit in a chair very long ( he was diagnosed by teachers as having ADD...) well, I never put him on ritalin and after getting my masters in ADD, finally found his propper diagnosis at the Shriners Hospital. If I had kept working at a career ( which I did try a few time) my son would not be walking upright today and be in college! He needed a mom, not a career mom, but a real mom who held him and loved him and still does. I am 45 now and I am trying to find a career I can start and God willing I will! I would never trade the way I raised him for anything. I did work, but it was not my focus, he was. It is hard now for me, as I don't have a lot of professional work experience, but like I said, the proof is in my son!! He is a wonderful young man, 21 years old and does not want his wife to ever have to work!!!!!
Post a Comment
<< Home