Amy on public education
While many parents have various reasons for choosing to send their kids to public school, the most often given reason is that their kids are to be salt and light. The reasoning is: If Christians pull out of the public schools, it will go to pot.
Folks, it's already gone to pot and kids are not evangelizing other kids. As Dr. Phil would say, "How's that workin' for ya?"
The religion of the state, secularism, is a religion that opposes God. Did the Israelites hire the Baal worshippers to school their children in the law of God? Did the children of Israel send their kids to the Assyrian schools?
My question in question, "Why do Christians who advocate 'salt and light' not send their children to the Islamic School of Jihad for evangelizing? Wouldn't tuition fees count as giving to missions?" is my way of calling Christian parents to intellectual honesty. If you are really sending your kids to school to be "salt and light," why not put your money out for the cause? Why not send your kids to a Jewish Day School? A Catholic school?
Each non-God-fearing institution is in need of the Good News. Why do you only choose the "free" one? (By putting the word "free" in quotes, I'm pointing out that robbing citizens of their money isn't free. If one would disagree with me on this, try not paying your property taxes on a house that you own. But I'm digressing here.) Why not get serious and send our Christian 5-year-olds to Islamic schools?
To deny that the public schools have an agenda to indoctrinate your child into a drone of the secular state is dishonest. See John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education.
Christian Day Schools and homeschools are the only viable option to today's American Christian families. Admittedly, it is high time that Christian schools find creative ways to reduce their tuition and fees. Going back to a New Testament model of worship and living by forgoing all the riff-raff of extravagant buildings, programs, and Halloween festivals that rival a New Orleans' Mardi Gras is one way to save money. Think of all the kids we could sponsor by TBN donations alone.
In the meantime, droves of parents are taking seriously the call of God to teach our children God's law (Deu. 6). This responsibility to train belongs to parents, specifically fathers.
As evangelical children leave their faith in droves (see any Barna study), it is crucial that Christian parents stop the insanity-which is, of course, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
The reason that I write about family life issues here is because I believe that culture will be changed on a micro level, not a macro one. In other words, as more and more Christian families walk the narrow way, the Church will be made strong. The world doesn't need another public Evangelical crusading against homosexuals, as recent news proves. Quiet, ordinary people who have presented themselves to God to use at His disposal will change culture. Little by little, a family here, a family there.
Don't miss Amy's great follow-up comment to this as well. Wise words from a wise woman.
posted by Crystal Paine at 3:25 PM
48 Comments:
Amen sister!
Crystal,
Thanks so much for sharing this. Amy is right on!! I thought since you liked Amy's post so much, you'd appreciate this one too. http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/News/6B2A6D22-B7E8-4FE9-885C-15AA985240EB.html
Blessings dear,
Amy B.
I once had someone say to me
"Don't send your kids out to play in the mud and expect them to come home clean"
I'm so excited DH has agreed to homeschool next year!
What a wonderful post and great insight! I was never homeschooled and never thought that God would call me to homeschool my own children. As a matter of fact, I'm ashamed to say that I used to hope He wouldn't call me to do it. My thought was "how in the world could I stand my kids always being underfoot?" How incredibly selfish of me! God has made it clear to me since I have become a full-time homemaker (leaving a career in public education, ironically) that He wants us to homeschool our children, when He blesses us with them.
Thank you for posting this link!
i am going to email you another great article you MUST read about this same subject Crystal... The truth really is THEY DO NOT WANT TO HOMESCHOOL THEIR CHILDREN, they like to use the excuse of salt and light...
While I love the idea of homeschooling and have many friends who have been homeschooled, I believe that there is also great value in public education. I have attended public schools in the greater Los Angeles area all of my life. I was in my high school's journalism program, and had the opportunity to write opinion articles from a Christian perspective. I also got to talk to a lot of wonderful Christian teachers, and discuss questions I had about faith with them. On another end, I think it was beneficial for me to attend school with people who had different religions and lifestyles. Learning about other faiths from fellow students helped me strenghten my own. Questioning your faith in light of skeptic arguements sharpens it. Therefore, I am very thankful I went to a public school that greatly aided in the development of journey with Jesus.
You need to send this quotation to Dr. Jim West, who seems to absolutely despise homeschoolers for their supposedly "circling the wagons" type of attitude, when in fact, the choice does sometimes seem to be between having our children shot at, raped, having their faith ripped away, versus a Christian education.
Yes, Mermade, but what value is there in sending your young little child into that hostile environment to be indoctrinated by people with beliefs contrary to Christianity who embrace "diversity," encourage selfishness, teach secular humanism?
We don't send our little children to be missionaries to heathen Africa, so why should we entrust them to a defunct, unconstitional government welfare system which teaches our children corrupt philosophy? Where is the parental responsbility?
Do you know that government curriculum in California requires kindergarteners to be taught about sodomy and to question their sex - all in the name of "diversity education"? Sorry but I call that "brainwashing" and as a parent I have a right to refuse to send my child into that environment. More importantly, though, I have a responsibility before God to raise my children up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, to teach them TRUTH - God's truth. I have a responsibility to teach my children God's Word all day long (see Deut. 6).
I understand some parents say that they can't homeschool or can't afford Christian school (which is not always that much of a better alternative to public education, but I completely understand that not every child can be homeschooled in every circumstance), but my response is, like usual, have you tried? Are you willing to make the sacrifices necessary to see that your child has the best influences placed upon their life? Are you willing to forego extra spending money, extra time, put in the extra effort, to provide your child with a wholesome, Godly education? If you are unwilling to, you cannot complain if your child someday turns his or her back on your religious beliefs.
Being a God-honoring parent means laying down your life for your child, it means sacrifice, it means sweat, tears, and hard work. But it is the most rewarding career there is - you are training and raising the next generation for the glory of God, not throwing them off to some 8-5 government humanistic babysitter. And your reward in heaven will be great.
Hi Crystal -
Please let me start this by stating that I am a Christian and I do plan to homeschool my children for all of the reasons that you have outlined before. No need to preach to the choir!
I do have a question though: How can we reach children from non-Christian homes? I am wondering because this is an issue very dear to my heart. I am from a divorced non-Christian family. I attended public schools and I was miserable. I had a very unhappy childhood and felt very alone, afraid and unloved. But, thanks be to God, a friend of mine at school invited me to her youth group. I started going and it changed my life.
I developed a relationship with God, gave my life to Christ and started attending church on my own. I met wonderful new friends there that are still friends 20 years later. We had good, wholesome and clean fun together. We laughed, sang, had bible studies, prayed and did service projects together. I began to have hope and looked forward to growing up and getting away from the sin in my family. I knew that I had a bright future in Christ. My friend's parents had to give me rides as my own parents would not go or drive me there either.
If my friend at school had never invited me to youth group, I shudder to think what my life could be now. Praise the Lord for my brave friend! :)
Many churches use youth groups for outreach as mine did, but I have concerns about many youth groups today. So many of them seem overly concerned about having 'fun' or attracting large numbers instead of producing young adults who love Christ and want to serve Him. Some compromise purity and propriety to 'reel them in'. There are some great ones I am sure.....but I would be very careful before I let my children attend one. I would want to make sure it was a wholesome influence.
Public schools are definately a big NO for our family. But what can Christians do to reach children who were in situations like I was? Evangelizing the parents wouldn't have worked in my case - my parents to this day are not just non-Christians, but anti-Christian. Somebody had to get to me directly, as my friend did.
So......does anyone know of any ministries or strategies that reach non-Christian children? How do your churches handle this issue?
Anonymous, our church has an outreach program at a public elementary school near our church building. Several times a week after school volunteers from our church have a Bible school there. It is allowed because it's "character education" and parents can choose to have their children there or not. Lots of parents are glad to have the free childcare for a few hours and so many unchurched children get to hear about Jesus this way.
When we lived in DC, our church had a similar ministry in the inner city - every day after school kids could come to a safe rec center type place and get a meal (many of them didn't eat except for their subsidized lunch at school - their parents were on drugs or just absent) and get help with their homework and hear about Jesus. What an amazing thing to show the love of Christ to these hurting kids!
I think there are also ways for moms to reach out to neighborhood kids without their children becoming corrupted. I have a friend who has an incredible heart for evangelism - she homeschools and her kids are allowed to have neighbor kids over (but not allowed to go to the neighbor kids house) and so the neighbor kids get to see a Christian family in action, hear the Gospel, and just be loved.
Ultimately, I think our first line mission field is our family. If you are not raising your children for Christ, all the time you spend reaching out to others will not change the fact that you fail your kids. As Amy pointed out in her comment on her blog, it is POSSIBLE to keep the faith in a public school (I was in public school for all but 4 years too), but it's hard, and you really don't know the little advances the Enemy is making every day. It took me several years after college to realize all the ways that secular humanism and worldy thinking had crept into my heart in high school and college, even though I was a Christian and had a very solid family life.
Crystal, thank you for posting this, I read Amy's blog, but hadn't checked the comments so I almost missed it!
Anonymous, I love your heartfelt question and I think it is very important to consider. We shouldn't just bury our heads in the sand or work so hard to protect our children from outside influences that we never have opportunities to share Christ with the lost and dying souls around us.
I also do not believe that God cannot do anything through the public school system. I've heard some wonderful stories like yours and it is heart-warming. However, like you said, I don't think that is reason at all to go throw our children out into this humanistic, Godless environment.
As far as reaching young children - there are so many opportunities. Start with your neighborhood children. Reach out to them with your children and show them Christ's love. Invite them to your home, invite them over for baking cookies, etc. Be there with your children and be guiding the conversation/the activities and overseeing everything. Make it fun, show them love, and who knows what an impact an open door this could provide.
This is just one simple idea. I'm sure there are hundreds of others and I'd love for others to chime in on this.
On a different note, I, like you, have serious concerns about the modern youth ministry in most churches. I do not think it is usually healthy or beneficial to segregate the youth as a separate culture. The church's job is not to provide youth programs, the church's job is to equip the saints, preach the Gospel, and so forth. Churches should be equipping parents to be Godly leaders in their homes and Godly examples for their children. Churches should be encouraging families to work together - not to all split up in five different directions and ministries.
One thing I think we have all backwards is putting singles and youth in their own separate programs in churches. Even calling them "single" is denoting that they are somehow separate from the rest. In a church or a family, no one should be "single" - they are part of a family - the family of God. Just because someone is not married does not mean they are less of a person or have less of a ministry or should be kept in their own subculture until they are wed. I think most unmarried individuals would love to be more welcomed by families - this is something which I think would be so much more effective than our current youth ministry phenomenon. What about families inviting "singles" over for dinner, families inviting them to be involved in ministry opportunities with them, etc?
I'd love to hear from some of you who are unmarried concerning this (I know it's a bit of a tangent, but it's something I've been wanting to discuss on here for awhile.)
How exciting, Sara! I know my mom prayed for years that she could homeschool and it took my sister (who was usually the very obedient one) getting into quite a bit of trouble with her school authorities before my dad was willing to give it a try. And he's never looked back! Hang in there and see God do great things on your behalf, too, as you put your trust in Him to work through your husband!
I agree that homeschooling is probably the best option for Christian parents these days. However, I was also raised in a non-Christian home and went to public/private schools all my life. My best friend at the public high school I went to was a Christian, and was the first person to talk to me about Christ and salvation. Also, another friend I met there would take me to church with her. I know in my heart that God placed them in my path for that reason.
On the other hand, schools are getting progressively worse, and while there are some good things about public schools it's not somewhere I would feel comfortable sending my own children.
Crystal,
I'll give you my input on singles and teen ministries and whatnot (even though come Dec 16 I won't be single anymore!!).
I, too, do not agree with the philosophy behind every single possible age demographic having their own ministry. Singles ministry, teen ministry (in my church group that's what they call "youth group"), middle school ministry, kids ministry, women's ministry (that's not age, I know), young marrieds' ministry. Believe it or not, I didn't make up any of those...in the church that I will not be attending much longer, these are all currently operating. Needless to say, Harmony and I try not to participate too much in this stovepiping tomfoolery.
In fact, recently they announced that on Wednesday nights they would be having classes for men, women, young marrieds with children, and (I think) teens. Well where does that leave me and Harmony? In the men's class, probably all that would be discussed was purity. I know us men need it, but we've heard that 50,000 times before. In the women's class, probably "empowerment." (Yuck) In the teens' class, probably some catchy 3 point lesson that somehow related to the latest pop culture craze. Whenever there's a popular movie, you can bet that there will soon be a teen devotional lesson related to said movie ;) If we had decided to continue going on Wednesday nights, we probably would've attended the young children's parents class, where we probably would've gotten some strange looks.
I totally am against segregating the singles. I totally agree with the family-focused church model. In my church, it seems as though no one's taught much about family and marriage until one becomes engaged, at which point there's not even always a big push from ministry leaders to teach teach teach. No hard feelings to my ministry leaders, but I think this is the truth. Anyways, we will not be attending this church much longer, mostly because our new home is 1 hour away, but partly because of the stovepiping of ministries as well.
I've observed that the singles' ministry seems to have its own subculture and that (in my church) it seems to be a placeholder ministry. Of course, these are just observations, since I made a conscious effort not to attend singles' events.
I noticed that after Harmony and I became a couple, I (we) started getting a lot more dinner invitations from married couples. Every now and then, some gracious family in the church would have a bunch of us college students over, for which we were always grateful. To my soon-to-be former church's credit, I think this happens more often nowadays.
Admittedly, not much cohesion to this post. I was just rambling in response to your request for responses from singles.
I am not single, but I haven't been married very long.
Our church was very small ( about 40 people). We had a very small youth group with kids from 12 to 18. I was never part of the youth group. There was one other single girl and that was all the singles in my church. Once a week this girl and I would go to our larger sister church for a Bible study. I loved hanging out with other Christian young people my age. We would schedule activities. As the years went by the singles from the Bible study eventually married one another. However, we didn't want to stop the Bible study group so it became a young married/singles Bible study. I do think it is nice to have some time with people your own age and experienceing the same things in your life. However, this group did not replace the regular church bible study.
It is hard being single in a church. I think you are over looked a bit. Being single seems to be like being an adolesent. You aren't a kid anymore, but you aren't an adult, either. It is a little awkward, but it does give you the oppurtunity to serve the Lord in ways that you wouldn't be able to if you were married.
I was never invited over to dinner by anyone unless they had invited my parents. I felt a little overlooked. I was defined by my parents. I felt that the church should've been looking at me as an individual. I had attended college, but I was still viewed as a kid by the church.
I agree with Amy's article. However, there are Christians who can't homeschool. This in an area where the church has failed. Churches either should have a Christian school or something. I don't understand why all this money goes to one man. Our church isn't very big, yet our pastor lives in a pretty nice house. I think the money is going to the wrong place. I believe in supporting your pastor and his family to a degree. Instead of having Awana and these other outreach programs why not start a Christian school (for the children of Christians only, not deliquent youth who have been kicked out of public school). The tuition to small Christian schools is ridiculous. My sister went to one that was affordable, but every year the price kept going up. The pastor was one of the teachers as was his wife. The other teachers consisted of church members and parents. The school did wonderfully until they allowed unChristian children in and the school had to close because things were so bad there. It was ashame.
I will say that you shouldn't decide that you can't homeschool unless you have tried it. It isn't as difficult as people make it out to be. It all depends on how you approach it and you and your kids.
I'm disappointed-I think it sets up such a divide between homeschoolers and those who choose to use public education when a broad brush is used to paint either side. If I were to say that homeschoolers don't cover as much material, that socialization doesn't occur, etc., then I'm sure you would be upset that I'm characterizing all homeschoolers that way. Similarly, I feel that characterizing all public education as bad makes the same false argument. Dave Ramsey talks about his children attending public school and finding that the public school had just as many Christian teachers and values as they would have found in the more expensive private school. I certainly feel this has been the case for us-I know which congregations many of the teachers attend, the importance of faith and God to the Pilgrims will be openly discussed this Thanksgiving season and last year our gym teacher left to become a missionary. What a marvelous opportunity for DD to know someone who had taken that step of faith.
It will be interesting in a few years to see if Barna researches if a distinction can be made between those who were homeschooled and those who were not in terms of leaving their faith. Incidentally, and perhaps it's just the congregation I attend while many of us have our children in public schools I've never heard anyone make the salt and light argument.
A gentle reminder that education's purpose and under the direct management of the parents is for a increased understanding of God including the need for a personal relationship with Him. Many a pastor that sent their children as salt and light to public school found that when they went on to Christian college, the children were confronted with the need to genuinely know Christ as Lord and Savior. You don't greenhouse tender hearts in the extremes of the world and expect the best results.
Two books come to mind:
Like Lambs to the Slaughter by Johanna Michaelson and When You Rise Up by R.C. Sproul, Jr.
I admire everyone's desires to raise Godly children and to protect them from harm.
However, I, having experienced both Christian and public education and being close friends with many homeschoolers, have a BIG problem with the assertion that it is public education that corrupts kids.
Think about this: Unfortunately, we are all born corrupt little sinners (cute ones, but corrupt!!!!). While we can strive to raise children in a Christian environment and expose them to only biblical teaching, none of this guarantees that they will follow Christ. Nor does public education automatically corrupt children, or throw any barriers up to salvation. Remember that it is God who draws our children near, not us. That does NOT negate the responsibility to give a godly upbringing, but it does take away the blaming of public education for kid's problems.
That being said, I understand the some of the ungodly ideas that are taught in the public school curriculum. (I went there, remember? I was a Christian at the time, and I was exposed to it all...) Instead of insult people for choosing public schools, why don't we charge parents with the same biblical mandate- to teach God's word and a godly worldview to their children. While kids are influential, they are not stupid, and the home is still the biggest influence on the life of a child, regardless of where they are schooled. They will often come home and talk about what they have learned with their parents, and parents have wonderful opportunities to teach the difference between Christ and the world.
I have listened to many of the good public school teachers lament that they wished they could do more for the children, but their home life held the teachers back. Home is the biggest influence on a child's life-regardless of education.
I think both homeschooling and public education have wonderful benefits to them, why must their be this haughty attitude towards the other one? From everything I have observed on both sides of the fence, the godly upbringing of the child has much more to do with the commitment of the parent to parent rather than the formal education choice they make.
Please consider that many wonderful, godly, caring parents choose to send their children to public schools. And this does not mean they care about their child's spiritual well being any less than you do.
Crystal said: "but what value is there in sending your young little child into that hostile environment to be indoctrinated by people with beliefs contrary to Christianity who embrace "diversity," encourage selfishness, teach secular humanism?"
My 2 oldest children attend public school. I have NEVER, EVER felt they were in a hostile environment. They are "indoctrinated" by fellow Christians who attend church with us.
As far as encouraging selfishness, that is totally a parents job. If the parents allow selfishness to be a way of life, then selfishness will prevail.
My children learn (at home) rules, service, scripture memorization, how to handle problems with others that don't have the same beliefs we do...And, frankly, I want my children to have to face some trials NOW while they are at home and have their father and me there to help them figure out a healthy Christian way to deal with things; rather than have them not know how to handle themselves or judge others who don't believe the way they do. Now, I am not saying that this is what happens to all homeschooler, but it must happen to some.
"Embracing" diversity--not in my school. Learning how to handle people of different beliefs, well, yes. We also have abstinent based sex education starting in middle school. Parents have a say in determining the curriculum in this area.
Let me add here that since about March of this year I have REALLY wanted to homeschool my children. I prayed and talked to my dh who said NO. I have brought up the subject a couple of times, just in passing and he is still opposed to it--even after praying for months. And, yet, I still would love to homeschool my children. NOT because the public schools are some evil to be avoided, but because I love them so much and I want to spend as much time with them as I can while they are still young. It all goes by too fast.
Yesterday I read this post and the one on Amy's website and today my ds, 5th grader, was in a Veterans Day assembly at his school. I have never been so proud of him, our school, my community and our country as I am right now. God and Jesus were mentioned many times as were blessings and prayers. Tears were shed by parents, veterans, teachers and even by some students. One child quoted a poem about turning off the TV to look for Heros and look across the room at your parents, your grandparents and the veterans who sacrificed to make our country what it is today.
Pride welled up in me as I watched my son and his friends and classmates circle around these veterans to sing "I'm Proud to be an American". And this was just one of three Veterans Day programs at our public schools today.
Are there problems with public schools? Yes, but it is not ALL bad. Please know that.
Sorry for this being so long.
God bless you,
Valerie
AWESOME!!! :)
We *love, love, love, love* homeschooling. It fits our life and our faith so perfectly. Today is 80 degrees and we headed to the zoo. It is so nice to have our school revolve around our family life and not the other way 'round!
I am a strong advocate for homeschooling. I was a public school attendee as was my husband. We both ended up fine but we both had major stumblings and looking back I can see how close to physical and spiritual death I was many a time.
However, I don't think the public schools should harbor all the blame. There are good solid people, many of them, who have come out of public and private schools on top in spite of being schooled in an unnatural environment.
I think that before sending your children out into the world by themselves for half the day it is important to work hard to fashion their armor, teach them how to use it, and help them strengthen under its weight. If your child is sent out into the world without God's armor and without mama's or daddy's armor to shelter them they are being set up for disaster.
I have 5 homeschooled children. My oldest is 11 and I believe her armor is just about complete. I am not going to bank on that feeling though. She will have plenty of years to test and retest it on her own, little by little, before she is released out from under my sheltering armor for good. At home her armor seems pretty light but out in the world, on her own, it can get very heavy and I don't want her taking it off because she is having trouble bearing its weight.
Some children are ready earlier and some later but I am not taking any chances with my children’s spiritual future.
An example would be my dear niece. She is the sweetest 10 year old. She goes to a very small public school with only about 25 kids in the entire 5th grade and a very Christian staff. She is a fairly strong Christian for her young age but the things she knows and the things she has seen are unbelievable. Being in public school has caused her to be unable to escape what the other kids talk about. Luckily, she has gone to her mom about most of it. There are some things she snuck to look up on her grandparent's computer because she didn’t know what they were. This proved to be disastrous for her innocence. And this very young Christian now has images of unspeakable actions in her head that she will never be able to get completely rid of.
On a slightly different note:
If God wants you to hear the Word, and you know He does, you will hear it. This is if you are in public school, private school, homeschooled, or live in China. A person is wrong to imply that the only reason they are a Christian is because of going to a public school. What probably happened was you heard the Word IN SPITE of going to public school because God chooses to work everywhere and we are blessed for that!
I could write on and on and on but I have a birthday boy today. My middle baby, Gabe, turns 6 today! I need to bake him a cake!
We have homeschooled our five children for the last nine years. My husband and I both are products of public school and I loved every minute of my public school education. I was quite the social butterfly! But, I came out of that 'scarred'. I was scarred in the sense that my innocence was violated. I knew more about worldly and immoral things than my parents did. My friends, not my parents, were my closest confidantes. I also came out of that experience with a career mindset. Public schooling and college only served to indoctrinate me in the belief that I needed a career to truly be happy and that "just" being a wife and a mother would not fulfill me. It caused me to shun my role as a wife and mother to which the Lord has called me. I do not want to perpetuate this curse on my own dear daughters.
My oldest daughter (now 16) went to public school until the 2nd grade when the Lord really impressed on me that homeschooling was what He wanted us to do. I have a masters in elem. ed. and I wanted to teach! So, I had to lay down my own desires for a career and fulfillment in that, and rest on the Lord for the strength to do what He called me to do. I had to die to self and say to the Lord, Your will not mine be done. What a blessing it was to be obedient to that call!
And, you know what? He has equipped me and guided me these last nine years. I wouldn't trade a minute of it! My children's hearts are knit together so tightly to mine and my husband's hearts. The children are each others' best friends. They seek to serve along side of us out in the world... being ministers to the hurting, acting as ambassadors of our family when I can't be there, counseling those younger and so much more. I must say these things wouldn't have been possible if they had been exposed to the corrupting influence of their peers (and possibly godless secular teachers). Even peers from the best and godliest families are a corrupting influence on your children. There must always be that supervision and interaction within a parents' control.
Now that my older daughters are teenagers, they have a strong vibrant faith and are able to sift the wheat from the chaff much more on their own. That skill will only grow as they grow in wisdom and maturity. It is truly a blessing to be able to disciple your children from birth until adulthood... a privilege I wouldn't trade for all the tea in China!
As a quick side note, I also want to say, there is nothing in the world like teaching your child to read! It is a thrill when you see that light bulb go off and they 'get it'! Everyone in the family celebrates these victories big and small. We all have an investment in the hearts and lives of the other members of the family. It's a joy and a delight! Why would I want to give those precious moments to another?
While I agree with her thoughts otherwise, I don't appreciate putting Catholic schools on the same level as Jewish or Islamic schools. Yeah some Catholic schools are so in name only, but they're not the only religion with that problem. -_-ih
Great Post- However if our children are homeschooled in the elementary years and are equiped to be the salt and the light I don't see a problem with public schools at a middle school/ high school level As long as the kids are armed with the word of God and leaders not followers. We have a problem in our church that kids are not bringing friends from public schools to church because they are so "out of the world" that everyone they know already attends church. The only way some kids will hear about Jesus is through a classmate. Additionally we have to be careful not to judge those that don't homeschool. We don't know their hearts or what God has called them to. You mentioned Christian schools as a good option-I beg to differ, many of those schools are no better. Often the kids that attend have been kicked out of public schools or their parents just send them there because class sizes are smaller and they feel it may be safer. My husband is a product of a Christian school and that was the case at his school. (not all christian schools are the same) I am a the product of a public school and if it weren't for my "Christian" classmates I would have rarely attended church as a youth.
Amy B./joyfully home, thanks for sharing that link. When we were deciding on home education, a lady shared some articles with us that included thinking of the home as a greenhouse and the children as tender plants/hearts that need nourished in the Lord and protected by the Him via parents being stewards until ready to be transplanted. This verse(and those related) were instrumental in seeing God's perspective(putting myself directly in the school as a volunteer helped me see that while some teachers may have had hearts panting for God, there were teachers that very much were His enemies influencing the children by their words and examples.):
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Pro/13/20.html
I firmly believe that what God calls people to do will have Him providing all aspects when asking and listening includes humility. Afterall, what He thinks is what matters now, 100 years from now, and for eternity.
Lori: I personally am not a huge proponent of Christian schools (as I mentioned earlier) for the reasons you mentioned and others. I went to a Christian school and can testify that although it was better, I definitely was exposed to lots of needless and harmful things as a young child. However, being taught from a sound Biblical worldview as opposed to a humanistic, anti-Biblical worldview is definitely better. But, I personally feel that parents need to be very careful in sending a child to any school, out from under their care and oversight. Maybe the teachers are Godly Christians and the curriculum is solidly Biblical, but the influences from other children are something to seriously take into consideration.
Amy wrote a great followup comment on her post and I would like each and everyone of you - especially those of you who have been offended by this post - to go and read it.
#16 here:
http://humblemusings.com/archives/2006/11/08/both-just-and-justifier/#comments
I know that education is a hot-button issue and I don't bring it up lightly. I'm not saying if you don't homeschool, you are sinning (unless, of course, God is calling you to homeschool and you are refusing to heed His call, but that is not my place to judge.) My point is to challenge the status quo. Like Amy (though I am light years behind her wisdom), I want to motivate you to think big. Don't be content with mediocrity. Don't be content to go with the flow. Seek God, search the Scriptures, and step out in faith.
Now, if you haven't already, go read Amy's comment:
#16 here:
http://humblemusings.com/archives/2006/11/08/both-just-and-justifier/#comments
Feel free to keep commenting on this post - there have been some great thoughts posted. However, please do not turn this into a heated debate. I've purposely deleted some comments which were headed in this direction and will not hesitate to do so again, if need be.
Thanks for sharing the additional post, Crystal. My computer has been acting unbecomingly today(one try at viewing the comments ended up opening unending windows. Tries at posting closed windows. Time to run a few cleansing programs.). I'm enjoying the reads.
Points well taken, as always, from Amy. BUT there is a very serious error in equating Catholic schools with Muslim schools. Given that the Catholic Church is indeed retaining its young people, in faithful worship and authentic Christian doctrine and practice MUCH better than the Protestant Evangelical branch of the church, it stands to reason than in fact, parents might well send their little ones to a Catholic school in order for them to be TAUGHT to be salt and light. - with that having been said, it also has to be remembered that there is a vibrant homeschool movement within the Catholic Church as well.
... but all that to say that sending a child to a place where he would be forced to deny that Jesus is Lord is a very different thing from sending a child to a Catholic School. tsk-tsk there, Amy.
This seems to be the topic of the last few blogs I've been on.
Here are some of my thoughts,
As far as how to reach Christian kids. We serve a VERY creative God. My homeschooled family has been invited into the schools many times to do presentations. We did a one room schoolhouse presentation and because it was "historical" could quote from the Bible because that's what the teachers would do back then. So don't limit your imagination or God to only one way to get into the schools.
The question isn't do public schools corrupt. Scripture is VERY clear about what corrupts, bad company and fools. The Bible says (sorry I don't memorize the address well) but here are the quotes,
Bad company corrupts good morals,
He who walks with the wise becomes wiser still but the companion of fools suffers harm.
and Psalm 1 says, Blessed is the man who does walk in the counsel of the ungodly. Nor sit in the path of scoffers.
He who is not for me is against me. Mathew 12:30
How do we know who the public schools are not for Him, because they do not educate in His name. Read Mark 9 and you will understand what I mean there. It is too lengthy for a comment box.
Scripture is where all Christians should be looking for the way to educate. Contrary to public opinion it is NOT silent about HOW a parent should educate/disciple their children. All education is discipleship of some sort. Either you will be discipled by the schools or by the wisdom of those who walk with the Lord.
Wow- great post! Thanx!! In light of the tragedy that just occured in the Mennonite community in lancaster, many conversations about being salt and light were spurred. One viewpoint we heard was that the Mennonite people are not able to be salt and light since they live very privately and very seperated, in effect 'keeping themselves away from the rest of the world'.
One great thing my care group leader's wife always says is that we are to Live Our Lives In Front Of The World, and this is how we can be salt and light - even to those who do not want to listen to any evangelistic efforts on our part.
Aren't they living their lives in front of the world? Aren't we doing that, too- whether we want to be or not? In this way, we are all salt and light.
Excellent post! I am a strong supporter in homeschooling. I attended public schools throughout my childhood with a brief attendance at a catholic high school. It was a sobering experience. If I am ever blessed children, I will not be sending them to a public school. The whole "salt and light" deal should not involve putting a young, impressionable person at risk to be deterred from the faith. There are quite a few homeschoolers here in Michigan, which has some pretty lenient laws regarding homeschooling. However families often get "surprise" visits from the truancy officers of local public schools. The Homeschool Defense League has had to step in and assist families who have been harrassed by public educators. It is a sad attack on the christian family, and thank God for the HSLDA!
I know many people who are christians and have their children in public school, yet I feel for myself I could never do it. For one reason is I feel like although there are good schools and good teachers, there are other teachers that are not good. Since the majority of children in a area go to public school that means that the neighbor down the street that swears at his mom and I do not let my children play with, he will be sitting next to in class for 7 hours a day. I will be with him for the next 5 or 6 hours and he will sleep the rest. The majority of his 12 years of school he will not be spending it around me. Yes, in elementary school children love their teachers, they will obey them. But then you get to junior high and high school and you wonder why you always have to be different. Some children will be fine. They are strong in what they have been taught in their home, I know some of them also. But then there are ones who are not, even inthe same family.
My sister's girls started attending public school this fall. It is a high end very good public school, christian teachers etc. I was however shocked when my sister said that her girls (8 and 6) use the D.... word. This may be a little thing, but you are what you are around.
If you learn most of what shapes your whole life before you are 10, I do not want the last 5-6 years of that to be spent with the neighborhood children.
I was homeschooled because my mom was tormented in public school growing up. She was one of the children that was picked on because she had a habit of picking her lips. What about other things, common childhood things, bedwetting, scars, glasses or handicap's like crossed eyes, cleft lip's, etc. My sister-in-law moved because her neighbor children teased her son so badly because he has a cleft lip and palate. Is that who you want your son/daughter sitting next to for the next 12 years of his life? Even if he is kind to your s/d his attitude towards handicaps may rub off. Racial issues, wearing a dress when everyone else wears pants, wearing pads instead of tampons and other things that I hear from friends of mine who say "We can't do that!!! What would people do to me?"
This is my reason for not sending my children to public school. It is not because I think the teachers are bad even, maybe your school does not teach the awful stuff, but the influences of those few bad children that yes, they will be around anyhow, but I will be around them more hours and hopefully I can prevent some of the lifelong injuries that happen to some people emotionally.
I do say you are not a christian if you send your child to public school, not at all, I understand why my sister had to, but I can not do it for my children.
May I just add, after reading Martha's comment, that in my experience in public/Christian schools it's the mean kids (the bully's) that influence the other kids the most. Also, I went to public schools for elementary and then to a Catholic school for middle school and in my instance the Catholic school was only slightly better.
Martha's points were excellent.
I am a public school teacher and I do have to say that after my own teaching experiences, I would want to homeschool my own children, to protect them from outside, troubling influences - and to give them the individual attention that children so desperately need - BUT - I do have to humbly submit that the comments on this thread apply in large part only to the privileged. I don't mean financially privileged, necessarily, because I know many of you have gone without in order to homeschool, but educationally privileged. If there were no government schools, or no people of quality in these schools, how would the children of non-English speaking immigrants, or the uneducated, learn? I agree that the K-12 public school system, is in many places, deeply flawed, and sometimes doesn't provide an adequate education - but again, there are thousands of underprivileged children who would never learn anything if not for public schooling - and more than a handful of whom benefit enormously from public schooling, are able to learn things that their parents never had the opportunity to, and to pull their own families out of poverty. There are uncaring, selfish public school teachers, just like there are uncaring, selfish mothers and homeschoolers. But the vast majority of public school teachers do care very much about their students - and those teaching in the inner city have daily, direct contact with the poor and the forgotten - I deeply believe that those teachers are doing God's work, even if the system itself is set up to be secular. These teachers are serving precisely those children whom society has neglected as a whole - is there not a glimpse of Christ in such work? I think it's great to tout the benefits of homeschooling, but to portray public schooling with such a wide, negative brushstroke is also inaccuarte and misleading.
Crystal,
Greg, Amy's husband here. Two things are not being discussed in this debate that should be. They go beyond Amy's original point, which was focused on one angle. (Incidentally, I don't think anyone has really engaged with her central argument). Nevertheless, if we're going to engage in the broader public school v. Christian school v. homeschool v. any other alternative, these alternatives ought to be addressed from a Biblical perspective, not primarily from an anecdotal, preferential, or emotional perspective.
My two questions to broaden the discussion, should you so desire: Should public schools even exist in the first place? That is, much of the discussion here and elsewhere presupposes that government education is a valid alternative, Biblically. So the question is, is it even within the realm of God given government responsibilities to provide free, compulsory education for its citizens? The second question is do we who are seeking to be Biblical Christians believe that all truth is God’s truth and that education in facts devoid of their relationship to the One Who Is Truth is hopelessly superficial?
Thank you Crystal.
"I don't understand why all this money goes to one man. Our church isn't very big, yet our pastor lives in a pretty nice house. I think the money is going to the wrong place. I believe in supporting your pastor and his family to a degree."
Zan - I'm sorry but I have to pick this thread up. I know it's off topic and I'm sure I'm about to come across fairly strongly so I'll apologize ahead of time. I'm not trying to attack you.
I completely disagree with you. Yes, I know Doug Phillips and the gang say you shouldn't have one man in charge but I disagree with them too.
My husband is a pastor. We live in a nice house too. We have a small congregation, about 40 people. We get paid $225 per week. Our mortgage is $800 and I am a SAHM - you do the math.
My husband works more than any other man I know. He works a 35+ or - , depending on the season, job as a pest control technician. He has to drive one hour each way just to get to his job, not including the amount of driving he has to do to see customers - sometimes upwards of 300 miles per day. He's on top of 50 foot roofs, lugging a 40 foot ladder, and inside the crawl-spaces of houses you wouldn't want to be in. He deals with roaches, mice, bats and all those yucky little creepy crawlies no one else wants to deal with. His boss is incredibly hard, yet my husband doesn't complain.
In addition, he spends time preparing messages for Sunday morning, curriculum for adult Sunday school, preparing bulletins, takes care of church trash (which we pay for) and heading prayer meeting.
We also have two children under 5, one of whom is mild/moderately autistic. They are the first things on his mind as soon as he gets home. He also watches them so I can get some time for myself and so I can attend worship team practise.There are a zillion other things he's done, like chopping wood, installing insulation, and grading/seeding what is now our lawn.
Oh, and did I mention that he helped install the new church roof, often with only one other guy, because everyone else was too busy.
He's been attacked by people who have a similar view and I can't stand it. It's so easy to be judgemental and say pastors have it easy. I'm not saying that there aren't wolves in sheep's clothing, but to make that kind of a sweeping statement is unfair.
1 Timothy 17-18 says it best, "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shall not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And the LABORER IS WORTHY OF HIS REWARD".
Again, it was not my intention to attack you or make you angry. I just felt I had to respond from another perspective.
Give all the neighborhood children a reading test and then teach those that need help to read phonetically. For those that need spelling help, basic phonics and phonetic sound spelling principles can help.
You'll be showing the love of Christ twice--once with your help and concern, and later when they can learn to read the Truth of the Bible on their own. How can they read the Word if they can't read well?
I've found that about 1 in 20 of the children I meet in areas with "good schools" and about 1 in 10 in areas with "bad schools" are reading poorly. (For 4th grade children, only 30% are proficient readers, there is a graph with state by state data as well at the NCES website: http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/nrc/reading_math_2005/s0006.asp?tab_id=tab1&subtab_id=Tab_1&printver=#chart
A graph on our website here shows adult literacy stats: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/litpercent.html)
It's a very rewarding way to share Christ's love and a love of reading.
At our phonics website, you can find free reading grade level tests and information about how to teach reading with phonics. There are also free online spelling and phonics lessons in QuickTime movie format.
This is a very interesting conversation I have been linked to! :) We homeschool our children as well.
I definitely agree that we need to think outside of the cultural box. And I sure laughed at the comment of why do we choose to send our children to the free schools every time! However, I do wish people would be careful about statements that could be perceived as all or nothing. Not that it is what people are saying (never public school / always home school). But it can quickly sound like that. I have read the books ... so I'm not ignorant of the arguments that "homeschooling is the right way."
However, I did want to say that my nieces and nephews in public schools have been amazing salt and light. They have been well-trained at home in the ways of the Lord, a biblical world view. (I truly think that is where parents fail ... they fail to truly raise their children in the Lord - whether they home school, private school or public school.) Because of the careful training from their parents ... they have had incredible experiences. In fact, one of my nephews led his teacher to the Lord last year. I really do take issue with the comment that they have gone to pot. It really depends on where you live. If, by saying they have gone to pot, someone means that they do not exist for the glory of God ... yes, that would be true. However, schools across the nation are not hostile in the way California has become. That is a blanket statement that, frankly, just does not reflect the majority of public schools. I have a dear friend who runs a ministry with her husband to specifically encourage and train teens to run the student-led Bible studies in the schools. They do an incredible job of supporting these believing students, training them, praying for them and aiding them in evangelism. I am so proud of how God is working in these schools.
Just some thoughts,
brooke
I don't know about everyone else, but personally, I have seen more and more moms around me choosing to pull their kids out of public school and teach them at home. (yay!) It makes me think of the analogy of rats abandoning a sinking ship. I was public schooled all my life and I loved every minute of it. I know that not all public schools are as bad as can be, and I know that not everything about public school is bad, either. However, I do believe that home school is the best that I can give me child. It seems to me that more and more parents are coming to terms with the things that aren't good and positive about the public school system and accepting the responsibility and embracing the benefits of in-home teaching. I hope and pray this trend continues!!
I'm a Christian, a pastor's wife, a former public school teacher who prayed for my students and let them know of my beliefs, and a mother of two. I am a supporter of homeschooling. But I think we have to be careful about saying all public schools are unfit for Christian families. There are entire states (CA and MA come to mind immediately) where I would never send a child into the public school. But there are a lot of school districts that deserve a deeper investigation before we write them off.
We have homeschooled and now have both children in a small public school two blocks from our house. We have not found this school to be hostile to Christians. A large number of the teachers meet to pray before school. My son just heard the theory of evolution for the first time in ps (presented as theory not fact) and his teacher followed it up with the biblical account of creation. In music,our children sing songs that the teacher explains come from the Bible; at Christmas time they sing songs about Christ's birth. Our church is permitted to send home invitations to children's programs. Once a week we pick children up at the elementary school and drive them to our after-school program at church. Our district sends bus loads of kids from the junior and senior high to our church every school day so they have a safe place to hang out, well-supervised by staff and volunteers. Our administrations and school board have more believers than I would expect. It is very clear to me that God is actively working in our district. It is amazing to see and be part of!
We have seen many families come to Christ through journeys that were initiated by their involvement in the ps or through relationships with Christian ps families. My family is right where God wants us ... for now ... and that happens to be the public school.
Greg (Amy's husband) has posed some excellent questions - things which my husband and I often discuss - which I think would be very beneficial to discuss here:
-------------
My two questions to broaden the discussion, should you so desire: Should public schools even exist in the first place? That is, much of the discussion here and elsewhere presupposes that government education is a valid alternative, Biblically. So the question is, is it even within the realm of God given government responsibilities to provide free, compulsory education for its citizens? The second question is do we who are seeking to be Biblical Christians believe that all truth is God’s truth and that education in facts devoid of their relationship to the One Who Is Truth is hopelessly superficial?
---------
One thing my husband and I noticed is that very few people have based their responses in this thread upon the Word of God. There have been a lot of "This worked for me" or "This didn't work for me" - is that what we should be basing our beliefs and practices upon? What works or doesn't work for some? No, I don't believe that experiential knowledge should be our basis for beliefs. We need to start with the Word of God.
Liz,
I wasn't saying that all pastors are lay-abouts and have it easy. Frankly, I wouldn't EVER want to be the wife of a pastor. It looks much too stressful to me. Not all pastors are like your husband. I have attended very small churches in the past and the pastors did nothing on the side except preparing sermons and visiting the 20+ members. The very small congregation paid all of his bills.I never understood why he couldn't get some kind of part-time job. It didn't make sense to me. I didn't see a lot of money going to the poor. Christians are supposed to be giving money to the poor and it doesn't happen very often, but that is another subject. I guess I didn't intend my statement to be a blanket one that all pastors have it easy. No way! My husband's father was a pastor and so, I do know something of growing up in a pastor's home. I think it is beneficial for a pastor to have some kind of side job. I think it helps them relate to the averagge husband/father in their congregation. My FIL did not (except a very small antique book business). I think it is good to remember that not all have the same church experience.
BTW, I am not a big fan of Doug Philips, so don't throw me in with that group.
I do think that the church should be caring for the education needs of the underprivledged children in the church so the parents do not have to send them to public school. This reponsibility should not be only of the elders but the congregation and sister churches, as well.
Sorry, Liz, if I got you mad. Your life is stressful enough, I'm sure.
BTW, your comment didn't make me mad, so don't feel bad. I didn't feel attacked. I will try to refrain from making blanket statements about anything biblically vague in the future.
Good point, Crystal. Where does the Bible command homeschooling and forbid public schooling?
I don't think public school is a very good idea and I think the church should've shouldered the responsibility to make sure their children were educated.
Although my initial study of education in the Bible found absolutely zero references to traditional or formal education (public, private or homeschooling), I have found many references to educating our children on God's Word and law. This finding is leading me to believe that what God finds important is that we teach our children about Him. If He thought worldy education was important I am sure He would have given us guidance on it. I will be doing an in depth study on this in the next week or so (I have been meaning to do this for a while).
I can't wait to see what I find out!
Zan,
I'm sorry. I knew I was going to come off hot-under-the-collar, but, as you can see, it's rather a sore spot with me.
I didn't mean to lump you in with the DP crew. Personally, I appreciate some of their products and a lot of the good things they have to say about home and family. But I know that's one of the view points they hold that I don't agree with, and a lot of homeschoolers follow them, and well, there you have it.
I appreciate your comments and I agree with them to a certain extent. My husband has found that many of our sectional reps don't take into account the schedules of small church pastors when putting events on the calendar. I think, too, that some of them have forgotten what the average man goes through. But, boy would I love to have him home more though!
Thanks again and thanks for understanding!
No problem, Liz. I would be pretty ripped if someone told me my husband was lazy, too. ; )
Some really good points here! I think that when public education began it was needed. I am one who do not believe that someone should go without an education because they could not afford it or their parents would not allow it. I do not think a child should be made to work instead of go to school. So, yes, because of sinful nature, I do believe that this should exist.
On the comment about what immigrants would do if there was no public school, is they would be alot better off in my opinion. I say this as a wife of a immigrant whose entire family quit school before graduating, not because they were not smart enough to learn, but because the school system was so bad they were not learning a thing except all the fighting, drugs, etc. from other students, so their mom would rather they quit school. Some of these immigrants are brilliant! Most of the ones I know went to college in Russia and yet they come here and we treat them badly because they do not know our language. Among the Russian children there are high precentages of gang involvement, drugs, drinking, my thoughts on it is because in Russia there was no other choice, but to go to public school, but at home they knew there was a huge difference between the state and the church. Here, there are not the distinct lines. Everything is blurred. I know a couple of families who send their children to public school for the first 2-3 years, so they learn the phonics and hard stuff and then they homeschool them. Even though it is hard, it is worth it because of the horrible things the children were bringing home.
Biblically, I think that the family and the church is responsible for educating the children. I think there should be more church schools. I look at the Amish and how girls and boys are taught their school until 8th grade and often go from being an 8th grader to being a teacher the next year. I had a pen-pal who at 14 was teaching school. They work hard to keep the children in the way they are taught and school is important to them if they are going to do that. In some areas where they have to go to public school, often they are ridiculed for their dress, manners and language.
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