What do you think? IVF and "playing God" through modern medicine
With the seeming increasing popularity of in vitro fertilization, I'm wondering if having babies at an older age will become more "in vogue" in the not-too-distant future?Frieda Birnbaum, 60, gave birth to twin boys Tuesday, becoming the oldest woman to give birth to twins in the United States.
The babies were delivered at Hackensack University Medical Center in Hackensack, N.J., by caesarean section.
"Baby A" weighed 4 pounds, 11.4 ounces, and "Baby B" weighed 4 pounds, 11 ounces.
Birnbaum said she felt great after delivering the two boys. "This is so wonderful, I feel so relaxed. It has been a great experience," she said.
Early Wednesday morning the boys were already breathing on their own and getting ready for a bottle feeding, doctors from the hospital said.
Mom rested well all night, and doctors described the morning as "a normal postpartum day one, without a hitch!"
Birnbaum, who is a psychologist, and her husband Ken, a Manhattan attorney, have three other children - a 6-year-old son, a 29-year-old daughter and a 33-year-old son.
Although I'm not personally opposed to IVF when used within proper bounds,* I think that we have to be really careful that we do not start "playing God" through modern medicine. I don't have any clear-cut answers at this point, but it's something I've thought about a lot and will probably continue to ponder for years to come.
What are your thoughts on this? What do you believe is Biblical and God-honoring? I'd love to hear!
*Update: Thanks to all the thoughts shared on this, I'm reconsidering my stance from yesterday on the subject of IVF. MM has a thought-provoking post on the subject here. Also, see the comments for more of my mulling over it... I'm thinking, thinking, thinking...
posted by Crystal Paine at 2:50 PM
68 Comments:
While it is my belief that a couple can and should have as many children as they want in a marriage, I also believe that we must respect God's creative design of our physical bodies. Technology and medical advancements may provide many exciting possibilities in relation to healing disease and extending life, but I think that's where it should end. Whether or not it is apparent to us as mere mortals, God has a reason for the parameters set for fertility and we must bear that in mind. Our desires must give way to what is right in this arena just as in any other. I often wonder what children born to mothers of such advanced ages will feel like when their parents chaperone field trips, or come to the school play. A mother or father in his/her late 60's early 70's will undoubtedly make a young child stand out in a way they rather wouldn't. However, that's just my personal opinion. This whole area of medicine is still relatively new and we can only wait and see where it all leads.
This is also something I've been thinking about. I'm not sure of my exact position but Albert Mohler has highlighted some disturbing negative things about IVF. It's worth a read and definately opens your eyes to the slippery slope of morals in America.
http://www.albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=947
I am not sure where i stand in this topic. I only now that God must be God, and when we take this into our own hands it gets dangerous. Like the woman who had twins and only wanted one more and got six. Like I now that as a woman our desire is to have children, and I totally understand that craving, but everyone has a purpose. So to have children, and maybe some not too.
Great topic, got me thinking thanks for sharing!
I believe that God always has a plan and knows what is best for us, and one of those ways is we have our childhood time, our childbearing years, and then our time beyond childbearing to age and move into a different life phase. God has ordained a time in a womans life when it is the safest and healthiest and ideal time to have children. When we move beyond those bounds, I think we are stepping out of God's ideal plan. What are the consequences? I am not sure. For example, I believe God has given us a plan for the foods that are the healthiest for our bodies. If we eat foods that are not in that plan, we can complicate our health. Perhaps this woman has had this pregnancy with no problems at all, but I think that is probably not the norm. Yes there are biblical examples of woman having their children late in life, however, they were God ordained pregnancies. God uses the things of this world to confound the wise and I believe so He can recieve the glory. When we step in to make things happen in th flesh, we are not guaranteed to have God's protection, and He is not getting the glory. For myself, I hope that at the age of 60 I am enjoying my husband and grandchildren! Isn't really amazing though, throughout our lifetime how short our childbearing years are!? I pray that women who can bear children protect their precious wombs and enjoy being used to bring forth one of God's most precious gifts..children.
Well, I was the one that sent you the link. I thought very interesting. If she had a baby at 20, then that child had a baby at 20, then that child had a baby at 20 she could be a great-grandmother!!! I do think by 13, 14, 15 the children will have to be pretty independent but will no doubt be thankful their parents brought them into the world. ;)
Personally I believe the Bible says ALL children are a blessing regardless of the circumstances and this couple is blessed also to be doing something that almost no couples their age will be able to do.
For a sixty year old woman to be having IVF is unethical. Just think how, in twenty years time, these two boys are going to feel having to look after their eighty year old mother. If she's even alive at this point. When she did this, she wasn't thinking about how her decision could affect her children, and that should have been the most important thing. However, even this could be understandable if she didn't already have 3(?) kids. And one of them is only six!
My heart definitely goes out to those who have a difficulty conceiving children. But at the same point, I firmly believe that there are boundaries that should not be crossed in science. I was raised Catholic, and though I may not agree with some of their teachings, I believe that they are very accurate on life issues, such as abortion, euthanasia, contraception, and IVF. They state that conception should only occur in the normal marriage act between a husband and wife.This is the way the Creator ordained it, and this is what ought to be upheld.Any other way to create life is most unnatural.
i don't mean this in a negative way, but i was a little suprprised that you are ok with IVF within certain parameters - would you mind sharing what those are? my own thoughts on this are unclear - i know couples with kids thru IVF, and obviuosly their children are a wonderful blessing - prior to this pregnancy i'm in the throes of, my ob sent me to a fertility dr. to get tested b/c i'd had two back to back miscarriages - incidentally, i never got tested for anything b/c i was pregnant again (obviously the getting pregnant was not the problem!) - you've mentioned your own struggles with infertility - if you've already shared about it, woudl you mind posting a link? if not, woudl you be willing to share more specifically?
IVF was the next option for my DH and me. It was going to be 12k/per procedure plus there's only a 30% chance of it 'taking'. PLUS you have to decide if you want to abort any babies that 'take' if you conceive more than a couple.
Anyhow, for 12k, you can adopt a whole lot of little brown babies here in the states so that's what we did. Sure they don't look like us but our boys act just like their DADDY. People ask us questions all the time so my husband uses those times to witness. Also, we have open adoptions with the birthmoms (two very sweet ladies in different huge cities) and we've been able to get one of them saved! We live in a tiny rural (heavily Amish)town of 1500 and there are 21 families here with adopted children of color. In 14 years, the football team will be mostly adopted boys! How cool!
We have met the most interesting people since we got our first boy in 2003. Never once have we heard a negative comment!
All in all, we are thankful we were given this family to parent. Who knows how many lives my boys will affect in the future.
Katie in Ohio
Mom to busy boys, ages 3, 1, and 7 months
For Anonymous: I probably opened a can of worms (I'm good at doing that aren't I?) in saying I'm not personal opposed to IVF in certain cases. I am opposed to it when it would constitute an adulterous act as I believe that is clearly unbiblical. However, when it is not that, I've known couples who have used it and if they've sought the Lord and feel that is what God is calling them to do, I can't say they are sinning to do so. I just can't say that. I'm not in their shoes. Every couple who is struggling with infertility needs to seek the Lord for His direction for them on this. For some, the answer might be to wait and do nothing. For others, it might be adoption. For others it might be something else like fertility treatments. As long as you are seeking the Lord together with your husband, how God directs you is how God directs you and it is not my place to judge your decisions.
But, as I posted, I'm still thinking this through. As medical technology advances, where will we draw the line? Right and wrong and "playing God" seems to become a bit more complicated. And I can't even imagine the issues our children might have to deal with someday!
Thanks for the great thoughts - keep them coming!
By the way, in answer to your other question, Anonymous, I wrote a bit about our infertility journey here:
http://www.biblicalwomanhood.com/article47.htm
My husband and I have been struggling with infertility for 4.5 years, as has one of my sisters and her husband. They have spent thousands of dollars on fertility treatments, with their next step being IVF. The doctors have no idea what the problem is with my sister. I have endometriosis and have had one surgery (completely paid for by insurance because the main problem is pain). People question me as to why we dont investigate our problem more because they know how much I want to be a mom. I know how awful I feel each month when my period starts, its always a disappointment and I know how much worse I would feel if my period started after spending thousands of dollars! My emotions change daily, but for the most part I'm usually in a state of disassociating with the problem or I would be an emotional wreck.
My husband does not want to adopt, so I must respect his wishes and keep praying that God will answer my prayer to become a mother in whatever way He has planned for me, if it's my husband and I finally conceiving or if He opens my husbands heart to the idea of adoption. I dont think that IVF is wrong, if it were offered to me free of charge or substantially cheaper, I would most likely try it. I'm not sure that it's "playing God" anymore than having open heart surgery or a hip replacement is. I would question why a 60 year old woman with adult children in their 30s would want to go through IVF to conceive more children though, why not just enjoy grandkids? :)
Crystal,
I am posting on IVF tomorrow, with a really sad snippet on point from the Family Research Council and the Washington Post.
The Church forbids IVF as morally unacceptable for several reasons.
First, the procedures entail the dissociation of husband and wife in the procreative act, which is properly an expression of their marital union. The dissociation of the sexual act from the procreative act undermines the dignity of the martial union as mutual self-gift. Such "procreation" is deprived of its beauty and distorts God's intentions for marriage.
Furthermore, the life and identity of the embryonic children who are produced through IVF are entrusted to the power of doctors and biologists. This establishes the domination of technology- rather than the care of loving parents- over embryonic babies. The act of IVF affirms a wrong idea of children as a "right" or "entitlement" to be engineered rather than as a precious *gift* to be recieved from God.
Finally, the most obvious problem with IVF is that it is abortive. A typical, succesful IVF procedure usually involves the fertilization of many eggs, which are discarded. These are human lives at the earliest stage of development, and the act of discarding them constitutes abortion. (I once posted on some friends who have begun "adopting" discarded embryos produced from IVF procedures: http://vocatum.blogspot.com/2007/03/pray-for-those-in-chains-unborn.html)
Actually, I'm going to post on IVF right away, come to think of it...
Crystal,
I don't understand how you can say that if a couple feels like the Lord is leading them to IVF, that it is okay, but by the same token, you have wholeheartedly made it clear that you don't think couples should wait to have children. It seems to me that there isn't a whole lot of difference when it comes to the issues. In both instances people are making decisions to change the natural order, in order to plan their lives and get the results they want. Your logic seems inconsistent.
Well...I'm Catholic. And while my church has pretty strong stances on a LOT of reproductive issues, one I disagree with is contraception/IVF or fertility help. I agree that children are blessings; we're expecting our first in a few short months,and this baby happened IN SPITE of contraception use, but I take issue with being told that if I'm having trouble conceiving, I can't have help.
It is one thing to 'play God' and create designer babies, or just throw away viable embryos. It is another when you live with daily painful reminders that you may NEVER bear children due to silly little edicts passed down by men in your church who never have to feel the pain you do (although I do feel the Holy Mother feels our pain, hears our heart-cries, and grieves along with us in infertility). Playing God is a dangerous label to slap on modern, lifesaving medicine. Is chemotherapy playing God? Tell that to my best friend who had thyroid cancer at age 23. Is open heart surgery playing God? If so, I wouldn't still have my father alive today. If anything, leveling the accusation that medical science, when used appropriately, is playing God, THAT is the slippery slope.
I'm all for someone being able to have the children they wish to have, WITHIN reason. And that within reason caveat for me is someone of "normal, healthy, childbearing age". If my Grandma had children, I'd question her sanity. Honestly. Overall, I think IVF is a wonderful tool if used properly and prudently.
Anonymous: I'm not here to judge, but I personally think there is a huge difference between trying to prevent life or killing life (as in the case of abortion, abortive contraceptives, etc.) and seeking to encourage conception (as in the case of fertility treatments). One is about life, the other is about preventing life. There is a big difference to me. However, I never said that I personally would feel right about using IVF. I just said I can't say that couples who do after seeking the Lord for direction are sinning.
I think sometimes when one has not experienced infertility, it gives you a different view on fertility and fertility treatments as a whole.
Andrea - I've been thinking of you! Good to hear from you and I totally agree with you on being thankful for the many advances in modern medicine which preserve and protect life. I wouldn't have my husband today if it were not for modern medicine which saved his life as a 27-week-old preemie and then later when he had two surgeries for brain tumors.
I am stumped on what to think about this. Happy for the new lives of course! But, the energy and vitality to raise little ones in a 60 year old?
Crystal,
I understand your feelings about IVF. It is one of those questions that can be heart breaking on both sides. You mentioned to the anonymous poster that having experienced infertility might make her see this issue differently. Well my husband and I have experienced it. This July will be our 4th anniversary. After many years of infertility problems and testing we got pregnant this winter. Unfortunately that pregnancy ended in miscarriage. Now I just found out yesterday that I am pregnant again (we would appreciate prayers for a healthy pregnancy and a healthy baby).
All of that being said. If a person believes life starts at the moment of conception, and that all life is a gift from God then it doesn't matter if the abortive nature of IVF is done in the name of OTHER lives. Two wrongs never make a right...and destroying other lives/embryos for the sake of saving one I don't think could be any more ok than someone killing their baby in an abortion clinic.
Also because IVF often results in multiples MANY parents decide to eliminate some of the babies that are implanted and now growing in the uterus and this is done via a typical abortion type procedure.
In my opinion IVF is just another slick way to promote the culture of death our society seems to be so in love with lately.
Thank you in advance for any prayers you can spare us.
God Bless
Jamie
Crystal, While I really feel for those who struggle with infertility, I do want to encourage you to think about something. If we are going to trust the Lord for whatever children that He has for us, then shouldn't we trust Him if His plan is to not give us a child. God has a plan for those He determines will be barren and in many cases it is adoption of children that He has for that couple, but also there may be ministry or other purposes that He has ordained. We need to use discernment when looking at the technology issue because not all medical advances are good...consider abortion. I think people need to stop bringing up things such as cancer treatments in this debate because its totally unrelated to God choosing to open or close the womb for His purposes (which we can see Him do throughout scripture). If we're going to trust Him to open the womb then lets trust that when He closes it, its His perfect will.
By the way, I receive tons of encouragement and ideas from this site and am truly blessed by you. Thank you so much!!
Whitney from California
I guess if we say IVF is ok (which I don't know that I think it's totally wrong...)
However, if it's ok for a young couple to do it, I don't see how we can look at an older couple and say it's not ok for them to do so.
I don't know that childbearing choices have anything to do with what the children will think of their old parents on field trips or school plays;) that is a frivolous concern IMO.
My mom's dad was 45 when she was born and one of her friends asked her if she liked having an old dad.
Mom said, "What do you mean?" she never knew her dad was old. He was just her dad.
Just wanted to say first, I will be praying for the poster named Jamie who found out she is expecting. congratulations and know my prayers are with you and your family!
Personally, I am against IVF. Usually when I have something I am against it is based on numerous facts, research, etc. This is not something I have researched in depth nor do I have an entire collection of facts about it.
I just know it does not sit well with me. THe main thing is the fac that the 'extra embryo's ' are so often destroyed or just left for other reasons.
Secondly, I find there is a large difference between doing surgery on a person that exists already and creating life through outside methodology. Creating and taking life is the ultimate example of 'playing God'. There is a huge difference between doing open heart surgery on a person and creating an embryo thru medical means.
In the example of this 60 year old I think it is absolutely disgusting! I think she absolutely did an injustice to those children for NUMEROUS reasons, which I"ll not go into here.
I find fault with the medical community also for implanting so many embryos. The national board of fertility doctors has actually pretty much said that implanting more than a small number like 2 is completely unethical.
I don't laugh when I see the Today show featuring the woman having 7 kids thru IVF. I don't chuckle like they seem to want people to do, I shake my head. Sure the children are a blessing but it is irresponsible for a doctor to implant that many, mainly bc many times they will not make it and so they are knowingly creating a life that is probably going to terminate.
Bottom line, both this story of this woman and IVF makes me feel very uncomfortable.
I will say at the age of 60 those probably weren't her eggs that were implanted but a donors, and that part I don't agree with.
Lela- www.xanga.com/lmcs79
I am a firm believer in God being the opener and closer of wombs. I have heard many strong testimonies from woman that were told they absolutely couldn't have children suddenly finding themselves pregnant. And also other testimonies from women whose wombs have stayed closed. It takes tremendous faith to rest in God's will.
I am not married and have no children, but I would like to think that if I encountered infertility I would have the faith to rest in God's will for the size of my biological family.
My two cents.
Leigh
My husband and I were just having a very lively discussion on the topic and he said I needed to clarify my position a bit -
Namely, I never think it is right to kill life or to suspend potential life in the IVF process. If you are killing life (or potential life) in order to produce life, that is wrong. This is one of the slippery slopes which can result in IVF and something we need to be very wary of. Life is not a disposable thing. That is another "within bounds" I should have clarified. I know that this is the normal process for IVF, but I don't believe it has to be that way.
And thanks for all the thoughts on this, it's really helping me to clarify things in my mind, too. As I said, I'm still thinking this through a lot.
I really appreciate those of you who have talked about the sovereignty of God. I know that in our infertility journey, that's where we were left - we couldn't afford any further testing or treatments and we didn't feel a peace about pursuing them at the time either. And so we threw ourselves at the foot of the cross.
Jesse brought this up in our discussion saying how important it is that we are not relying upon doctors but on the Lord. Or in trying to take matters into our own hands when we should be leaving them at the feet of Jesus.
Lots to mull on...
She is way too old!! I am five years younger and I cannot even imagine! Who will finish raising them if she dies before age 80?
Not sure how I feel about IVF...but it is hard too NOT to have your own offspring. We have young friends going through this right now.
I have mixed feelings on this topic since although I haven't personally struggled with fertility problems, I know those who have.( I do think it's "playing God" definately to use someone else's eggs.) I also have a problem with women that are past child bearing age (have gone through menopause) using IVF to conceive since in the natural order of things in would not have happened.
I guess IVF seems much more invasive and than just fertility shots and I have to wonder if God is really okay with life being assembled in a dish outside the body.
On the particular woman described in the article, I do feel in that case it was wrong. I don't understand why she felt the need to have another child when she was 60 years old and had already had three children. There is a season for everything. :-)
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I feel this particular mother was rather selfish. It's one thing if you happen to conceive at an older age. But to deliberately try when you are 60? That doesn't make sense.
I am the eldest in my family and there is a substantial age span until the next sibling. As a result, I always felt like an only child (very lonely childhood!) and feel more like an aunt to my younger sibling. I have children of my own now, and instead of my parents getting to enjoy being grandparents, they are still in the young child phase themselves and have little time (or energy!) available for my children. It's very sad. I know this isn't always the case in every family that has children later in life, but it is definately something parents should consider before adding (especially through artificial means) to their families at an advanced age.
Is it really responsible? I wish parents making these choices would think about from their future child's point of view instead of just focusing on their "dream".
My goodness, Crystal, I can just imagine the flood of response you are receiving on this controversial topic. :-)I applaud you for tackling these difficult subjects on your blog, not for the sake of creating controversial debate for "the fun of it" but rather it seems like you a real heart for the Lord. I always come away encouraged and blessed after reading your comments, even when I don't totally agree. I've definately been opening my Bible more these days.
On the topic of IVF, my personal view is that it is not God's design for conception and it's trying to force something that God did not choose to intervene and make happen naturally. I don't think everyone on earth was meant to have children.
Crystal,
... as you mull, maybe something to clarify further is what you mean by "potential life." What is that?
The Christian position is that human life begins at the moment of conception- not at implantation, or at "viability" or at another stage of growth- so there is nothing "potential" about the life of the fertilized embryo. It's a person! - albeit a very small person :)
I really liked Katie in Ohio's comment. If it's really all about how children are a blessing and should be loved and cared for, then what she said really really makes sense.
I guess I personally don't understand how someone can say "We're letting God control the womb" and then think it's okay to "make" yourself pregnant with IVF. That's not letting God open and close the womb, is it? Or is it only wrong for us to "close" the womb, but okay to force it "open" if we wish? Hmn... :)
I have a relative who underwent extensive fertility treatments... everything but IVF. She finally gave up. Less than a year later, she was pregnant. This was after 6 years of trying various things. She actually had decided she didn't want a baby after all, and was planning to go on "the pill" but her husband told her "don't bother" because she'd never get pregnant, anyway! How someone can go from fertility treatments to the pill in that short of a time... that's a whole other issue! LOL :) Sorry for rambling. :)
With medicine, ...there is so much grey though. Where does "playing god" start and end? Technically aren't most forms of modern medicine interrupting with god's plan, or someone's definition of god's plan? Chemotherapy, diabetes medication, life saving surgeries...etc etc. If you look at the mortality rates of long ago, it's very obvious that modern medicine has resulted in keeping MANY people alive in situations in which they would have otherwise died. Death, especially early and tragic death was part of life. People endured a lot more than we do now. People don't want to hear that kind of honesty, but its true.
Personally, I think this is cruel to the children and very selfish. Nature itself teaches us that women of that age do not bear children. I saw my husband lose his father when his father was 69 and my husband was 25. It was a very hard bereavement, coming so early when really a man still needs his father.
I am an infertile woman and I know how hard it is to accept childlessness. This woman was not childless. She was thrice-blessed, and then wanted to be a mother again at 60. Why? In what was is it good for a child to have a grandparent for a parent? I am thankful that many grandparents can raise their grandchildren with love and do well at it, but most grandparents would acknowledge that it is not in a child's best interests to be parented by someone of advanced age.
To be infertile is very hard, particularly for Christian women who desire to bear children for God's glory. But the hardness of it yields such a good fruit if we allow it to be used for good as God purposes and cling to Him and grow in faith. God is glorified in our submission to Him and His plans for us.
For what my two cents are worth, I believe that anything that separates fertility from sex is intrinsically immoral. Especially given the high number of embryos, baby humans, who die before they even see the uterus. How someone can allow that many deaths just to get one life amazes me.
In the case of ivf, more life is being destroyed than created. There are usually so many left over embryos that a couple would have to freeze them(in which case they usually don't survive), donate them to research(again, they won't survive), donate them to another couple, or discard them (again killing embryos).
Even if there was a way to do this without killing embryos, nothing about this process feels ethical.
~Samantha
I am good friends with a couple who have been married for over twenty years. They tried for years to get pregnant when they were first married, but were never able to. They opted to not pursue any other means of pregnancy, and felt that the Lord, being the opener and closer of the womb, had seen in His soveriegn will to not bless them with children. They spent their childless years in intense ministry. However, two years ago, out of the blue, they found out they were expecting! And they just recently had their second child(once again, a total surprise from the Lord!). While my husband and I have not been blessed with children yet, I see this couple as a wonderful model for waiting on the Lord and trusting His will.
Great thoughts, ya'll - keep them coming! And who knows? You may just change my mind. :) You've most certainly given me a lot to think on.
For those of you who think IVF is wrong, do you also think that any and all types of fertility treatments are wrong or do you think some are okay? I'd be curious to hear thoughts on that, too.
I personally have experienced infertility and miscarriages. So I do know the pain and longing of wanting another child and not being able to conceive, or conceiving and being pregnant for a VERY brief time.
Having thrown around the idea of fertility treatments in my head, I concluded that IVF is immoral. I say this because usually they harvest a bunch of eggs, fertilize them with sperm (make embryos...tiny human beings), inject them into the woman and hope that one or two implant. What happens to the rest of those tiny human beings? They basically get flushed down the toilet. To me this is unconscienable.
Another question: For those who think IVF is wrong, if IVF could be done without "destroying" life - as in, only creating one or a few embryos and only injecting those - would that make it okay? I know that's not the way it's usually done, but it *could* be done like that and I guess that's what I had in mind in saying I think it is okay in certain circumstances.
I've never really thought through all the ramifications of this before (I know, I know, I really should!) - and always just thought of IVF on the same level as other fertility treatments. Maybe I need to reconsider.
In even saying "creating an embryo" above, it causes me to pause and wonder if that in itself constitutes "playing God."
Don't you all enjoy hearing me think out loud?
It bears repeating that I really appreciate the thoughts which have been shared here. You've given me a whole lot to think about, think through, and consider in light of Scripture. I've never dug deeply into this issue before and the more I think about it, the more I'm reconsidering...
That's one reason I love blogging on topics like this and hearing differing thoughts as it really causes me to ponder what I believe and why. Something I should do even more of than I do.
I just want to add to the discussion, that when talking about controversial topics, especially something like reproduction, it is imperative that the Christian goes to the Word of God for answers instead of experience. Many of us have had experiences, whether they be miscarriages or infertility, that seem to color our views. We need to be sure that our litmus test is always what Scripture says.
I don't believe that IVF is God-honoring. We believe that God controls conception and birth, that children are a gift to be accepted, not manipulated into existence no matter what method is used (Remember what happened when Sarah used that most ancient form of going around God to try and conceive a child?). I do believe that we are to keep our bodies as well and rightly functioning as we can so if things aren't "working" I would definitly go get it checked into, just like I would if some other system seemed to be unwell, and I would advocate doing what was necessary to help everything work naturally but when it comes to IVF or taking drugs that force hyper-ovulation, I don't see scripture that supports that.
I do believe that if there is a cancer or sickness invading our body we need to attack it, just as we would any other invader! I think we do see scriptural backing for that...1 Timothy 5:23, Psalm 104:14, and Matthew 9:12 where Jesus himself said that the sick need a physician. I think there is a big difference between fighting for life that God has already gifted to us and trying to create life outside of the God-ordained method. I thought about and studied this issue quite a bit after seeing a documentary on the beginnings of IVF. I think that in many cases we can get an idea of whether something is ultimately good or not by its beginnings and there was a LOT of death in IVFs beginnings, with a 100% failure rate at first. Those were babies, tiny people, who were conceived and then introduced into a hostile enviroment and subsequently starved to death because the doctors didn't have a clue what they were doing. Even today for every baby that makes it, many, many more won't.
I have never experienced infertility and I pray that my daughters never do, I know I can not imagine the anguish of desparately wanting a baby and having that dream denied, but we will be raising our children to leave it up to God. If He does not present them with the gift of children when they feel it is time then perhaps he has something else for them to do or maybe He is just saying "Wait on Me".
And I haven't even touched on the babies who are implanted for "two mommies" or into a "host" womb (surogate pregnancy) or 60 year old women...
I think first off, we need to understand how IVF is different from other medical treatments.
In my own opinion, I believe medicine is meant to treat something that has gone wrong with our bodies or restore a natural process. For example,having heart surgery is a means to heal or restore our body's most vital organ; so that it may function normally again.
IVF is not doing any of that. IVF is not helping the woman or man treat their infertility issue in the sense that it's restoring their natural function. However, fertility drugs that help stimulate a woman't ovary to release eggs, is restoring and healing a natural process.
Like the anonymous commenter said, we must carefully set aside our emotions and feelings and look to Scripture.
God created us male and female and commanded us to be fruitful and multiply the earth. However, he set certain guidelines to fulfill that command.
First, it must only happen in a marriage between a man and a woman. They become "one flesh."
It is written that children are always a blessing, but we can't use that to justify premarital sex,adultery,homosexual unions/family, surrogate motherhood, or anonymous sperm donation. Each of the above cases, the child is concieved outside of the marital union. In IVF, the child is concieved outside of the marital union. So when God says "at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate"; with IVF, is mankind not separating what God has purposfully designed marriage to be, one flesh?
Aisha
I'm not a big fan of IVF because of what MM said in her last point. When they discard embryos or put them on ice is not an activity done by people who respect life. I have read about the couples who adopt the embryos (they call the babies "Snowbabies"). I think IVF in that case is good because they are trying to save life. I think MM makes an excellent point about how a lot of couples view having children an "entitlement." If you view that you deserve a baby no matter what the cost, that's wrong.
I know a few couples who have tried and tried IVF and because of lack of funds, they can't have anymore embryos implanted, so they have all these embryos on ice. I think that's unethical. I don't feel like I can say this because I feel so bad that they are not able to have their own children. This is, really, such a touchy subject. I will report that one of the couples adopted two babies. After the second adoption the mom found out she was pregnant after 12 years of "trying."
Now, I wouldn't flush all fertility treatments. I think that shots to help the woman ovulate are OK, as long as she is prepared to carry multiples.
The 60 yr old women having a baby doesn't seem like a good idea. It wouldn't be good if it were a man fathering a child at 60, either! Children need both their parents in their childhood. My husband's parents were 45 and 50 when he was born (natural) and he always was afraid that they would not survive to see his own children. Thankfully, they did. There is a reason that women stop ovulating when you are a certain age. I think people need to start embracing old age.
-Zan
I agree with you, Crystal, in that I myself don't know that I'd be comfortable with IVF. But I am expecting my 4th baby and have had less than 10 cycles in 5 years of marriage--so I can't really put myself in the shoes of those who struggle with infertility. I also agree that disposing of life is ALWAYS wrong, but if the couple struggling with infertility makes sure every embryo is used, then can I say IVF is sin? From what I have found so far, the Bible doesn't clearly address this issue, other than to say that children are a blessing and that it's very natural for a woman to be desperate for offspring (1 Samuel).
And as far as what nature/our bodies teaches us, then to say that a 60-yr-old woman is sinning to have a baby is like saying that a woman who doesn't breastfeed is sinning. Can we say that breastfeeding is better in many ways? Definitely! Can we say that having children before your body "closes shop" is better? Probably. But can we say that choosing otherwise is sin? I just don't know that it's that black and white until the Lord has convicted a heart and the issue becomes one of personal obedience.
That said, if someone can produce Scriptures that clearly refute fertility treatments that still value ALL life, then I will agree that IVF is wrong. Until then???
Crystal, I read your update about IVF. I know for a fact as my great christian friend had IVF that you do not have to agree with the DR to "abort" certain embryos and you can say I only want X eggs fertilized. She had it done twice. She kept all eggs that where fertilized. So, I think it could get a little touchy to say "ALL IVF selects and aborts certain eggs" its a personal choice just like abortion.
I know many christians that are against abortion(which I am), had IVF and did not select certain fertilized eggs, they kept them all.
Look at the McCauleys that had 7 and where advised to select some to get rid of. They kept them all. Just like my friend did. No personally I would not have said take 7 of my eggs and fertilize them.
I think we should be careful to lump all IVF into the same group. Some people are doing it "biblically" and choosing life the whole way through 100%. I am not saying you said differently, just clarifying...
Homemakerang - that was very helpful to hear. I guess that's what I've been mulling over and why I've always thought IVF would be okay in certain circumstances - where, among other things, life was not being destroyed or frozen in the process.
Still thinking and pondering...
I hear alot of Christians argue that IVF is acceptable because God has allowed the sceintific advancement in that area. I disagree with that mentality, since there are obviously many horrible things going on in the world of science that in no way bring glory to God (abortion and assisted suicide come to mind). Although IVF is different in the fact that it's goal is to create life, most times they harvest alot of eggs and then select the healthiest ones to implant. I think many times God chooses not to intervene and leaves people to deal with the consequences of their own actions.
I can relate to the yearning for children, since my husband wanted me to be on birth control for the first several years of our marriage and it was hard to deal with "baby fever". Although I got pregnant right away once I was not on birth control, I can understand the pain of wanting a child and being denied. I think in this day with all the advancements and technology, it's difficult for people (even in Christian circles)not to take matters into their own hands since we are encouraged by the world to fulfill our dreams and have what we want when we want it. I realize that desiring children is a very godly goal, but I don't think every married couple was meant to have offspring. I think God has special plans for those couples.
I have to comment on Brietta asking if it was a sin to have a child at 60. Well, obviously if she had gone through menopause and couldn't naturally have conceived anyway, then I feel like in that instance it is a real blashpemy against God's plan for her body. If she wanted siblings for her six year old, why couldn't they have adopted an older child? I know someone who underwent IVF and it cost $15,000. There are lots and lots of older children just waiting to be adopted into families since many couples prefer to adopt a baby. This whole story smacks of selfishness to me.
i feel that if God wants to open our wombs He will. just as i feel birth control is wrong i also feel that ivf and the like are wrong too. it is taking charge of the situation we are to leave to Him.
I have suffered from infertility for over 5 years. I could not and would not do IVF. There are some doctors that will only fertilize and implant just 2-3, but I still wouldn't do it. I however have and will continue to do drugs until God directs my path otherwise. The only reason why I take fertility drugs is because without them I do NOT ovulate. Ultrasounds, test, and blood work have all proven this. That and I don't have a menstrual cycle. No ovulation means no menstruation. The drugs allow my ovaries to produce the hormones that are needed to ovulate and the bring on a normal cycle. If I get pregnant on them it will only be by God's hand. Otherwise, I just like being normal. My only other choices are to have a hysterectomy or to be on birth control.
Now back to IVF, it takes babies and implants them without much of a chance of taking. 30-40% is the numbers. Those are to small of a chance for me to take.
For those suggesting that women (or men) that are struggling with infertility to "just adopt", it isn't that easy. It can cost a lot of money and some of us aren't being led by God to adopt.
And just a side note, if someone entrust her secret of infertility with you, don't tell her all your stories of friends and loved ones who couldn't get pregnant and did or adopted and then got pregnant. While it seems like you are helping, trust me when I say that it is more painful that you can even imagine. Instead just hug them and tell them you are praying for them. That will go much farther.
IMO, if we are to be consistent, and we morally oppose the use of contraception, we have to do the same for IVF. Both separate procreation form marital intimacy and both are about human desire/will rather than God's.
I really believe that God ought to be Sovereign in opening and closing the womb. God has worked miracles, such as in the lives of Elizabeth and Zachariah, where He blessed Elizabeth with fruit of the womb in her old age. God will certainly bring forth life when He Wills it to come forth. I think there can be some real problems with fertility drugs. I knew a man who had to give his wife a fertility shot every day, and it was extremely painful. Also, often, it increases one's chance of having many multiples, which can be difficult. I think it would be most prudent for an "infertile" couple to throw themselves at the feet of Jesus, seeking His Will. There are many powerful herbs which are available to naturally boost fertility. We should use those prior to running to potentially dangerous drugs.
This has been such an interesting post, especially the comments. My husband and I have been married for 15 years and have never had children (not by choice, we've not prevented them).
I'm not sure where I stand on this issue but I thought MM and Cappuccino Life made some logical points.
The way I see it, you can't have it both ways.....If you're against BC because you believe it's taking control of an area that only God should have then along those same lines, so is IVF.
Oh and I can really relate to what the last anonymous said:
For those suggesting that women (or men) that are struggling with infertility to "just adopt", it isn't that easy. It can cost a lot of money and some of us aren't being led by God to adopt.
Very interesting discussion. (o:
Blessings,
~Mrs.B
I have had a short period of infertility - about a year and a half of waiting, then one miscarriage at 3 mo, then 7 more months of waiting. So, not like the years and years, but certainly a healthy dose of desperation and crying out to the Lord and grief. Still, I thought a lot about IVF and other treatments but we chose adoption (interrupted by a pregnancy - still a bittersweet experience). I found IVF to be absolutely abhorrent because if I chose IVF over adoption I would almost certainly cause some children to die. A dear friend of mine who did do IVF multiple times casually laughed off her husband's comment that they might end up with triplets, with "We are NOT going to have triplets." And they didn't. All the babies (embryos) died. I likened it to adoption - if I brought the baby home by plane and for some fictitious reason it was dangerous for the child to do so, shouldn't I choose to take the boat (though it is the long, hard way) instead? Should I just adopt 3 kids and hope one of them survives the trip? Isn't that like killing them? Basically, that's what you are doing in IVF, even if you only implant one. The process is very, very dangerous to those little lives. The resulting choices are hard in these days of "get what you want" but as one poster put it, there is fruit in the hardness. Adoption is a sweet choice. Remaining childless seemed too hard for me, but the Lord's grace is sufficient.
This is a difficult topic and I think that if you have never struggled with infertility (which I know you have, Crystal) you have to be careful and gentle in discussing this issue. The pain of infertility is very real and it is hard to hear people who are easily able to conceive judge others for a personal decision. I trust that believers who opt for IVF have sought the Lord on this issue.
My husband and I are the blessed parents of 2 adopted children. We opted not to pursue IVF (our only option) for many reasons but we certainly do not condemn couple's who chose that. You can control the number of embryos fertilized, how many are implanted, and you should be able to choose what happens to any remaining embryos.
Please remember that infertility is one of the most difficult things a couple goes through. Though there are many pregnancy stories about couple's conceiving after adoption or infertility treatment this is often not an encouragment to those going through this and doesn't happen for many, many families. I know when we adopted our children, we sometimes felt like people thought we were adopting just so we would conceive - definitely NOT the case! We are very blessed and know these are the children God planned for our family!
Some anonymous commentor mentioned the chances of IVF implantation being 30-40%. I just wanted to add that, naturally, a woman only has a 25% chance of becoming pregnant when she ovulates. (I read this in some pregnancy book). This probably goes down as the woman ages, but that is pretty low for a normal healthy couple. Everything has to be right for the baby to attach and grow. I think this just proves that the conception and birth a child is truly a blessing/miracle. No matter what people think about this subject, fertility is a gift.
BTW, when I told the story of the couple who adopted after IVF and then got pregnant, it wasn't to discourage people. I was just stating what happened to one couple. I am very aware that this isn't as common as a lot of people think. I know they didn't adopt thinking that that would make them get pregnant. They had given up on conceiving on their own...or with help. Sorry if I threw any salt on any wound out there.
I do know so many couple that either haven't been able to have their own children or have had problems which makes me want to repeat that fertility is a gift and a blessing.
-Zan
Crystal,
... to answer some of the possibilities that you raise, again from the RC Catechism, even if there were an IVF procedure that was guaranteed not to produce excess babies to be discarded, such procedures would still be immoral.
This is because the whole marital act has meaning. The way our bodies work and the way we employ them in marital relationship can and should honor God and His framework. The physical consummation of a couple's marital union is just not supposed to occur in a petrie dish.
Deliberately separating the sexual and procreative aspects of marital union is one sad and significantly culture-accomodating step away from God's perfect and beautiful design for human sexuality.
Infertile couples can share and express the love of God in their families by adoption.
I don't have time to read all of these comments, but I did want to add some thoughts I had. My mom and I had a conversation about this a couple nights ago, after reading the news article. Our first reaction was that God didn't design women to naturally have children at that age, so isn't IVF interfering with God's perfect design?
Also, on another note, we have a small farm and keep many animals on our property. Among farmers it is a very common practice to use AI (artificial insemination) for cattle, as an example, instead of keeping a bull on the place. IVF sounds a lot like AI to me. I know it's a little different, but it's still sort of the same principle. In my opinion, using IVF seems like we're treating women like animals!!! (Which is really what our society is believing now anyways that man evolved from apes.... so I guess if we are animals then we can act like animals and do AVF, right? :-))
And no, I do not agree that we are animals; I believe God has created us in His image and therefore we should follow His design for reproduction. If you can't conceive naturally, maybe you can adopt? There are so many babies (and children) that need parents! And, although it might be difficult to accept, perhaps God did not intend for you to have children. There are some couples that He has a different purpose for. I know one couple that wanted children very much, but they could never have any. Now many years later they look back on their life and realize that if they had had children then they never would have been able to be involved in the ministries that the Lord had planned for them.
Okay, enough rambling. I just wanted to add my two cents!
This is such an interesting and thought-provoking topic for discussion (albeit controversial!) - thankyou for allowing such extensive commenting on it Crystal.
The way I see it (in regard to this story) there are two issues people seem to be having with this couple:
1) their choice to undergo the IVF treatment; and
2) their age.
Personally, I do not believe that IVF is a God-honouring decision. It is an assisted reproductive technology that is very different to undergoing fertility treatments. It involves "the application of laboratory or clinical technology to gametes and/or embryos for the purposes of reproduction" (http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/ethics/human/issues/art.htm ) and personally I see this as "playing God" if you will.
The second issue of the age of these parents is also a very sensitive one. Many commenters have also made comments about this. I am the youngest child of an older Dad so obviously this is something that I feel strongly about (my Dad was 49 when I was born and he is 15 years older than my mother). However I love the way that commenter A Dusty Frame put it:
"My mom's dad was 45 when she was born and one of her friends asked her if she liked having an old dad.
Mom said, "What do you mean?" she never knew her dad was old. He was just her dad."
So is mine - I am so glad to have been parented by such a wise man. Sure he might not be around for as much of my life as my mother will be - but his life is truly fruitful and his legacy lasting.
Psalm 100:3-5 declares:
"Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name. For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations".
However long those generations may be in your family I pray that we would all continue to seek God's will in all things.
Diana
For the record, I do have experience with infertility and miscarriage.
Here are some points to ponder:
In an ideal scenario, IVF would be done after much prayer. It would use the husband's sperm and the wife's eggs. Only two or three eggs would be fertilized. The couple would be prepared to parent all of the children that resulted (eggs that have been manipulated are actually more likely to split into identical twins; I actually read about a case where two embryos resulted in three children). No artificial contraceptives would be used to regulate the mother's cycle (I have read that many doctors require a woman to be on the birth control pill; I don't know if all do or why). The woman would be pre-menopause. Even under ideal circumstances, though, there are issues.
For example, you may not have created and discarded extra embryos, but likely you are working with professionals that do so for a living. To me, that seems like having Dr. Kevorkian treat your elderly parents, or George Tiller as a pediatrician for a preemie.
I do think some fertility treatments are appropriate if your body is diseased, damaged or otherwise working improperly. Surgery to clear tubes or correct the shape of the uterus, or drugs or procedures to help induce normal ovulation or increase sperm count to normal levels, seem very much like legitimate medical treatment, although I can also understand forgoing treatment if one believes that is God's will and the condition would not endanger a child.
If a person has a condition that would endanger any child they conceived, it seems morally necessary to do whatever is possible to correct or ameliorate the problem. For this reason alone, I think it is wise to have some tests done if you are infertile.
When I decided that I would not prevent God from giving me children, I also decided that I would not be pursuing extreme fertility treatments.
I do not feel that you necessarily need a specific leading to adopt. If I waited for a leading from God for everything in my life, I wouldn't do much. God told us in His word to care for orphans and the fatherless, and whether it is embryo, infant, or older child adoption, it seems like it is a good thing to do. (I am not saying that everyone should adopt, but I don't feel like I have to wait for a leading to pursue what God says is a good thing. Certainly those who can conceive do not wait for a leading before attempting it.)
I am rather disturbed, though, at the number of people who are disapproving toward this woman because she had "enough" children. Would you think that if she were adopting? If God had allowed her to conceive naturally? I think that infertile people, especially, sometimes have to guard ourselves against jealousy or anger when God gives others many children.
I have no problem with someone having surgery to correct a medical condition that prevents conception from occuring (such as a blocked fallopian tube). This at least still allows the couple to conceive naturally and doesn't take the glory away from God's miraculous design for conception within the bounds of marriage.
I have alot of concerns with IVF beacuse it is placing the whole "coming together" process of sperm and egg into a sceintist/doctor's hands. It's a very invasive procedure and is disturbing in the fact that usually only the healthiest eggs are implanted, leaving the unused eggs to either be discarded or else frozen indefinately (and if they aren't "prime" eggs to begin with, these leftovers are usually not saved).
I am speaking from someone who wanted children for many years before the dream was realized, so I know the pain of being childless. I think many Christians have the mindset of "the ends justifies the means" since having a family seems like a worthy aim. But--at what cost? Don't misunderstand my viewpoint. I'm all for people making use of modern medicine for illnesses and things of that nature, yet we must remember IVF is a purely elective procedure with many risks involved.
I just want to say that with IVF, even if you control the number of eggs fertilized, and you insist on all of them being placed in the womb, you are placing little lives in grave danger b/c many times not all of those little lives will implant, and some will die.
This is not at all the same as an embryo not implanting after natural intercourse and conception. In IVF, you have intentionally placed those lives at risk! It doesn't matter how careful you are about the number of eggs fertilized or how prepared you are to parent them all. That's not good enough if you intentionally put your children's lives at risk and some die as a result.
I'm not trying to be mean and nasty here, just wanting people to be honest about what really happens.
As one who has experienced miscarriage, I know the pain of wanting a child. What I have to say is probably going to ruffle some feathers, but after reading the points written here, I felt the need to comment. It comes down to this: Having children is not a right. We are not entitled to be parents. Yes, it is a wonderful gift from the Lord to have children, but those of us who are barren MUST learn to be joyful and content in spite of it. It's not easy (I know!) but if we truly are leaning and trusting Him, won't He give us the strength to bear it? We don't need to have a sub-par life if we cannot be a mother.
I just had to add this, and I should have done it in my comment before:
Implantation rates are less than 50%! Think about that!
I'm so glad people are thinking this through. ((hugs))
I'm coming into this conversation 63 comments late, but....I have a few thoughts. :)
First, why do so many people feel they need to decide the right or wrong of this woman's situation? I'm puzzled. It would probably be impossible for any of us to have all of the information and variables in place that the woman had factoring into her decision. To me, this is enough to remind me to focus on what's mine to focus on. :)
Secondly, there are some rare women still fertile at 60. Would age be the same negative factor for some QF-minded couple that ended up pregnant at 60? I don't think it's fair for the QF 60 year old to be blessed, while the 60 year old that wanted to get pregnant is disgusting and unnatural.
Third, if God is the author of life, does that not extend to IVF? Just because science can put the right elements together, is it science or God that causes these elements to combine and become a new life?
Fourth, I strongly suspect that one's "feelings" about the morality of an issue would be shot down heavily on many other potential discussions. I'm not so sure that feelings are a valid reason to condemn IVF.
Fifth, it is certainly possible for IVF to be done in a way that honors the husband and wife and is used only to create life. Many people use IVF that way. Just because others don't doesn't mean the entire process is bad.
Sixth, the comments about IVF not being within the bounds of the marital union are kind of puzzling to me. It's not like the couple is preferring IVF to the regular, old-fashioned way of getting pregnant! Nor is it as if the couple is not continuing to have a regular marriage relationship. And, if IVF is a way of getting a child outside of a "natural union" then isn't adoption also in this category. (as in, the married couple now has a child that they did not conceive through natural means)
This subject always brings me around to thinking about medical/scientific intervention in a variety of situations, and I usually come out feeling confused all the way around. It seems like the very same group would say that:
IVF is wrong (using medicine/science to have a child is bad)
QF is right (using no medical/scientific effort is good)
An extremely premature baby should be kept alive through any medical means no matter what the child's medical prognosis is (using medicine/science for the child to live is now good)
Allowing an extremely premature baby with poor medical prognosis to be taken off of medical technology is wrong (using no medical/scientific measures is now bad)
Keeping a very ill person that is in pain and alive dependent upon medical/scientific means is good.
Yet, allowing this person to discontinue their medical/scientific measures would be bad.
Why does there seem to be such a muddle of opinions about whether or not going to "extreme" measures with medicine or science is good or bad, and whether or not leaving nature to take it's course is good or bad. Are we obligated to one and not the other? Does the obligation shift with the particular circumstance? If so, Why?
I realize this may be opening a can of worms that you don't have energy for, Crystal. I'm just always perplexed at how there does not seem to be a consistent stance among some groups on where the line is between medicine, science, mercy, and grace. I do not have the answers myself.
I think 60 is far too old to have a baby BUT I don't think I have the right to stop this woman doing it.
Does a soul ever get created without God's blessing? If you're not meant to have children all the IVF in the world won't help you.
If you have a problem with selective abortion following IVF (as I would) then you only try to fertilise 1 or 2 eggs. It reduces your odds, of course, but it means that if they both take you should be able to keep them both.
There is a new form of IVF called natural IVF where the woman does not take lots of hormones. They just use the one egg that she naturally produces and attempt to fertilise it with her husband's sperm. This is helpful when the problem is some kind of blockage between ovary and uterus or the man is producing healthy sperm but for some reason he is not ejaculating it. My view is that, if God wills it, such a procedure will result in a baby. If it's not meant to happen, it won't.
Each couple needs to make their own decision on how to proceed. If they do wrong it's between them and God and not for us to judge.
IVF and adoption are totally different from each other. I see IVF as being wrong since it is physically putting the egg and sperm together outside of the body. Yes, in many cases it does happen successfully through this procedure, and of course God could intervene if HE so chose, but doesn't it seem that He often lets people go ahead and make their own decisions even when it's contrary to His plan? If you take the approach that it wouldn't happen if that wasn't His ideal plan, that would be like blaming God for every bad thing that ever happened on earth, every new immoral sceintific "advancement" (like cloning, gender selection at conception, etc.).
Adoption is different because it is taking a child that is already in existence (or about to be) and giving that child a stable, loving home. That c